How old is the Kora, and from where does it origin?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd May 2009, 03:33 PM

I am reading in a booklet, ’A Catalogue of Arms and Armour in The State Museum, Hyderabad, A.P., 1975’, and here the author M. L. Nigam writes.

“In the eastern parts of Deccan, some new weapons seem to have been introduced to suit to the regional needs of the people. The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs. The temple is datable to the second half of the eighth century AD. It may, therefore, be presumed that ‘Kora’, the favourite weapon of the Gurkhas, had come in vogue by the middle of eight century AD”.

If the Kora, in the second half of the eight century was fully developed, it suggests to me, that it, as a type, must be quite a bit older, but from where did it come - any suggestions?

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2009, 06:55 PM

Hi Jens,
Excellent reference from this catalogue, and the subject of this weapon, the kora, and its origins will likely remain a subject of considerable debate indefinitely. This reference reinforces the importance of iconographic sources for study on the development of weapons, as architectural carvings and artwork are static, and can be soundly established with the dating of the structure itself as a rule. Certainly this must be qualified with the fact that many temples and such structures were works in progress over periods of time, but at least a reasonable benchmark can be established.

It would seem that the kora, as a weapon, represents more of a concept than specific form, thus its development becomes a matter of perception in many ways rather than distinctly being observed in chronological and geographic lineage, as much as we would like to accomplish that very thing.

As noted, the basic style of the kora is observed in the artwork at the Mukhalingesvara Temple which dates to middle 8th c. AD, and as you have noted, the form seems to have been fully developed by this time.
The basis for the form itself seems to have come from the ancient Greek kopis, which is essentially an edged weapon with forward curved blade for powerful downward stroke, and its origins believed to derive from the even earlier form known as the Egyptian khopesh.

This basic concept has often been assumed to associate the kora, kukri to the Greek kopis via the highly speculated and debated movements of Alexander in these northern regions in the 4th c. BC.

The Greek kopis itself is believed to have likely been derived from a bill hook like implement used in slaughter of animals and cutting meat, much the same as this type implement is used in agriculture related utility with the Nepalese tribes, as well as thier ceremonial use in sacrificial ritual, with the kora.

The heavier weight by widening the end, adds to the force of the downward cut of the concave edge, thus adding dramatically to the effect of this form of implement either as tool or weapon. With that being the case, it is not inconceivable that the concept might have developed independantly, while the subject of the kora in its distinct form is I think more the point of discussion here.

We know that the kora, as such, is widely present not only in Nepal, but congruent regions of Bengal and Orissa. The prevalence of these in Bengal as early as the 17th century is established by provenanced examples in the Royal Danish Kunstkammer and recorded as East India sabres c.1674. It is noted by Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that most extant examples of the kora seem to be of 18th-19th c.

The travel and adventure writer Fanny Parkes ("Wanderings of a Pilgrim", London, 1845, Vol. II p.243) refers to the kora as a 'bughalee', as noted in Elgood's glossary. While it may be presumed that as the wife of an EIC official and simply romantically observing esoterica, it is worthy of note that she was apparantly quite familiar with weaponry, as one reference shows;
"...I have a pencil instead of a gun and it affords me satisfaction equal if not greater than the sportsman derives from his Manton". (Vol. II p.191).

Manton= an famous British arms firm in Calcutta who produced shotguns and other weapons.

While some travel writers simply offer vague descriptions of weapons, i.e. curved sword, shotgun etc. she is clearly specific, suggesting considerable veracity in her use of the term bughalee used for the 'kora'.

The forward curved sword type was also well known on the Iberian peninsula as the falcata, and again, the associations between these, the kopis, the machaira and the khopesh are all ancient forms of this concept (though the blade curvature of the machaira deviates). To effectively link all of them or any of them directly to the kora or kukri must remain speculative, but the determination of the kora in form to the 8th century by this evidence seems well placed.

As always, I look foward to the views of others, and this is what I think from what I have understood of previous research and discussions.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 2nd May 2009, 07:32 PM

I'd suggest that this form developed in many places due to the simple ergonomic function of such a shape for Early Man .

Gonzalo G · 5th May 2009, 07:39 AM

Interesting thread! I don´t have this material actually referenced, does anyone have pictures of this kora represented in the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga? Could it be that the name designates different weapons, as Jim seems to imply? Can we compare the koras mentioned by this authors with the ones produced in Nepal? I still cannot have a picture of the down curved blades from Ajanta!

I have seem some other pictures from antique indian iconography, but the down curved blades does not seem remotely as khukris or koras (and for the same purpose, less as machairas, kopis, falcatas, falx and so on), and I don´t know how those weapons were named. At least, do we have a detailed description of this koras as to be sure about the whole geometry of the blade? Is it relevant tha fact mentioned before by Sirupate, in the sense that the word "kora" is not the one used in Nepal?

Without better information and some images, all this must be taken very cautiuosly!

Regards
Gonzalo

Jens Nordlunde · 5th May 2009, 04:17 PM

Jim, Gonzalo,

Thank you for your answers. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the stone piece from the 8th century, I only have what the author has written. After I started this thread, I have been told about a stone relief showing a man holding a kora/kora like sword, and this stone relief was dated to the 6th century.

If one wants to study the very old weapons, the safest way to do so, is to study the stone reliefs, and there can be far between the reliefs’s where you see any weapons, but it is the safest way to learn about the subject. Old palm books can be interesting, but they seldom show a drawing of the weapons, and the names used, can often be used for several types of weapons.

sirupate · 9th May 2009, 04:53 PM

From the Nepali perspective, there seems to be the thought (in Nepal) that it originated in India, and made its way into Nepal in the early 14th century, and it is classified as a Hindu sacrificial blade and weapon.
It is intersting that the Khunda is not commonly found in the Villages of Nepal.

ariel · 9th May 2009, 05:01 PM

What about the Tibetan Kora?
Tibetans stem from the Mongoloid culture; did they also get their Kora from Hinduist India?

sirupate · 9th May 2009, 05:36 PM

Hello Ariel,

Are you referring to Sacrificial khunda? I must confess to never having come across Kora/Khunda from Tibet, only small swords and daggers, but Tibet is not my forte. It would seem odd to have a Hindu weapon/sacrificial blade in use, in a Buddist country?

Tibetans are not just of Mongol origin btw.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th May 2009, 05:43 PM

Sirupate, Ariel,

“In the eastern parts of Deccan, some new weapons seem to have been introduced to suit to the regional needs of the people. The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs. The temple is datable to the second half of the eighth century AD. It may, therefore, be presumed that ‘Kora’, the favourite weapon of the Gurkhas, had come in vogue by the middle of eight century AD”.

I really don’t know what the author means by the word ‘introduced’, but to me the word means that the kora was not ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but must have come from somewhere else – but from where? Maybe I misunderstand the author, and the kora really was ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but if so,

it is strange that they are seen on stone sculptures in this area, but as far as I know, not in the area between there and Nepal. How could they ‘jump’ from one place to another without leaving any traces?

Well Ariel, I don’t know, and I can’t say, that I have ever seen a Tibetan kora. Do you have a picture you can show?

sirupate · 9th May 2009, 06:13 PM

Hello Jens,

Quote:

The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs

Has anyone confirmed that they are kora/khunda? or is it just M. L. Nigam's interpretation of what the image might be?

The Khunda according to the Nepalese historians I have been talking to is not the favourite weapon of the Gorkhas, this appears to be a myth born from early British writers who never even went to Nepal.

Gonzalo G · 10th May 2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

From the Nepali perspective, there seems to be the thought (in Nepal) that it originated in India, and made its way into Nepal in the early 14th century, and it is classified as a Hindu sacrificial blade and weapon.
It is intersting that the Khunda is not commonly found in the Villages of Nepal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

The Khunda according to the Nepalese historians I have been talking to is not the favourite weapon of the Gorkhas, this appears to be a myth born from early British writers who never even went to Nepal.

All this seems esoteric without concrete references everybody can check. The fact is that there are many very old indian khukris, but I have not found a trace of very old indian koras. And there is a plenty nepali koras with a definitive nepali handle. What Ariel says is very relevant. I believe (and I can be wrong), that those weapons could have a distinct origin from a tibetan group settled in Nepal.

Also, the kora is a weapon seem to be used in old times by the superior warrior castes, and not likely a villager tool. But the khukri is both things. I think that the kora was a relevant weapon before the introduction of fireweapons in Nepal, but not after. The kora seems not to be a practical weapon to carry with a musket or rifle; I don´t have a very precise information about, and if I am wrong please correct me, but I have the impression that the kora was carried without sheat. And their price must be too high for the common soldier, which can instead carry the khukri from home. This is not a simple matter of personal preferences, I believe.
Regards

Gonzalo

ariel · 10th May 2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Sirupate, Ariel,

“In the eastern parts of Deccan, some new weapons seem to have been introduced to suit to the regional needs of the people. The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs. The temple is datable to the second half of the eighth century AD. It may, therefore, be presumed that ‘Kora’, the favourite weapon of the Gurkhas, had come in vogue by the middle of eight century AD”.

I really don’t know what the author means by the word ‘introduced’, but to me the word means that the kora was not ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but must have come from somewhere else – but from where? Maybe I misunderstand the author, and the kora really was ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but if so,

it is strange that they are seen on stone sculptures in this area, but as far as I know, not in the area between there and Nepal. How could they ‘jump’ from one place to another without leaving any traces?

Well Ariel, I don’t know, and I can’t say, that I have ever seen a Tibetan kora. Do you have a picture you can show?

Well, that is definitely not my area of expertise ( or major interest), but I learned that info right here, on this Forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kora+tibet
Jim's remarks there were the source of my understanding of the difference between the Nepalese ( broad and heavy) and Tibetan ( slender) Koras.
Have I misread the info?

Norman McCormick · 10th May 2009, 01:48 PM

Hi Gonzalo,
I have seen a few Kora complete with sheath but only a few, whether this is down to loss/damage or the possibility that many were used without a scabbard I don't know. The sheaths I have seen have been associated with what I would understand as the archetypal Nepalese Kora rather than the 'Tibetan' or 'Indian' forms. On another note, thank you for your kind remarks re my Tulwar Hilted Kora in a previous thread.
My Regards,
Norman.

dennee · 11th May 2009, 03:47 AM

I'd love to see any good attributions of koras to Tibet. There were certainly examples found there, whether or not any originated there. There are some early to mid-twentieth-century photos of religious dancers with koras, and these koras are narrow, generally with a very convex end, unlike Nepalese examples, but they could have been modified.

I haven't seen koras in other period photos or paintings from Tibet or in monasteries, but I have seen talwars, 'katars,' Indian shields, etc. Weapons made their way into Tibet in any number of ways, and many were donated to the protector chapels in monasteries. Koras may have been attractive for ceremonial use because of their exotic appearance and origins.

Berkley · 11th May 2009, 04:51 AM

Plate 41 in Rawson depicts two "Koras with sheaths covered with velvet; chapes and lockets of pierced and chased silver. From the collection of King Frederick VI. National Museum, Copenhagen".
This image from John Powell shows a much more utilitarian version:

sirupate · 11th May 2009, 09:31 AM

Hello Denee, do you still have access to those photo's? as I was speaking to a friend of mine, who has travelled extensively in Tibet, and he has not seen any Kora/khunda being used there at all, only the traditional Tibetan swords and knives.

Nice picture Berkley, that appears to be a wooden handle on the khunda? The initial problem regarding Rawson works, appears to be no Nepalese input on the khunda.

Berkley · 11th May 2009, 01:42 PM

The grip is leather wrapped ferrous metal.
My reference to Rawson was for the purpose of directing the reader to his photographs, which speak for themselves - the proverbial 1000 words, as it were, in neither Nepali nor English.

sirupate · 11th May 2009, 03:23 PM

Thanks for the answer on the handle Berkley, it looks to have a great grip.

dennee · 12th May 2009, 05:33 AM

Four photos of Cham dancers at Pelkhor Choide monastery, Gyantse, Tibet, 1940s. The first is a photo from late 1942 taken by Brooke Dolan and Ilya Tolstoy and published in Rosemary Jones Tung's "A Portrait of Lost Tibet." The rest are from the late 1940s, taken by Pietro Francesco Mele and published in his book, "Tibet."

You'll notice that the ends of the khuda are straight or concave, and the grips are sometimes very simple, with no pommel.

In all the books I have read, I have never seen a reference to the use of khuda in Tibet except these photos. Gyantse is in the south, not a great distance to get khuda in trade or to have retained them from the Gorkha invasions in the 1790s and 1850s. Monasteries retained weapons in their protector chapels, and this weapon may have appealed for use in dances as suitably otherworldly for its exotic form.

Gonzalo G · 12th May 2009, 08:08 AM

Thank YOU, Norman, for sharing your pieces and for your interesting points of view.

Berk, very good material! I am always in a need of documental sources. Yes, I know there are some kora scabbards, but my point is if the kora was carried into battle with its scabbard or on the hands of the gorkha. I recall to have read somewere that koras were carried on hand into battle, but I have to check this source, and anyway I have not any certainty about the scientific grounds on which this statement was made. Anyway, these scabbards were in fact scabbards to carry the kora into battle, or only a kind of storage cases? Did this scabbards belong to sacrificial or to fighting koras? Or to both? There are precedents of swords carried into battle on hand, and I ignore if there are sources clearing this point.

Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal? I am afraid that we do not have definitive answers based on ultimate scientific evidence. Intercourses among India, Nepal and the Tibet are a fact. But I wonder if the fact that the kora are used in chamanic rites, and this photos you provided are a proof of it, no matter there are no books in the occident dedicated to this subject, is a cricunstantial proof that the kora was in fact an old tibetan (in the ethnic, not the geographical sense) weapon. You know, those people taked very seriously their rites, and there are many precedents of very old and otherwise obsolete weapons from some ethnic gropus, only kept by the chamans or priests to be used on their rites. I think I recall bronze weapons used by roman and egiptian priests (and I believe judean also), in their ritual sacrifices, when iron or steel weapons already have been substituted the bronze ones. Even used flint knives instead, in other ethnic groups.

We need first hand good sources from many countries, since the languaje is a barrier and there are not many nations represented here. And also, we need some well based knowledge on the archaeology and history on many areas not well known for the occidental scientific. For example, I have given sources to proof that not only europeans did in fact forged wootz, but also that in Spain wootz was imported and forged well into mid 19th Century, and my source was unknown only because it came from books written by spanish specialist in castilian languaje and published in 1850. So, there is a problem, and a big one, of lack of information, or from lack of information from available sources in an available languaje for the reader. This absence is not proof of any argument, but of the fact that we don´t have information. The important thing is to have a scientific attitude, recognizing what is a fact based on proof, and what is a probability based on reason, circunstantial facts, logic and so on, and finally, what is only speculation originated in cultural, phsycological, ideological or personal bias or interests. And when only testimonies are given as proof, keeping a healthy skepticism, since even actual archaeologic discoveries have given proof that the classic graeco-roman historians lied many times, were wrong or imprecise, based on the same bias or interests.
Regards

Gonzalo

sirupate · 12th May 2009, 04:29 PM

Dennee, many thanks for posting the pictures of the khuda, and for your explanation, they are certainley in the style of fighting khuda rather than sacrificial. They may well have got there not only through war, but through cultural exchange, which happened from time to time between Tibet and Nepal.

fearn · 12th May 2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal?

Hi Gonzalo,

I was recently re-reading Egerton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour and he made an interesting distinction. He attributed the kukri to the Gorkhas, and the kora to the "Nepali people." It's an interesting book, and while he's far from a perfect source, he was writing during the colonial time, when the Brits were dealing with the various tribes and kingdoms of India and the Himalayas.

My question is, does this remark make sense? I know that Nepal is a multi-ethnic kingdom, but I'm still not sure whether it's as strongly tied to the Gorkhas as you state. Is that just my confusion?

Best,

F

dennee · 12th May 2009, 06:19 PM

Gonzalo, I appreciate your statement that the absence of proof is not in itself evidence, but you don't seem convinced of it.

Unless I misread the above, there was reference to a "Tibetan" type of khuda. This may be a term of convenience, but I don't yet see a foundation for such an attribution or origin. I'd suggest then that until we have the evidence, we refrain from the attribution.

True, while most of the books I have read were in English and written by westerners, not all are. And I don't know that I have seen in LaRocca's glossary, compiled from Tibetan-language sources, a description of a weapon that would neatly fit this, other than 'curved sword' generally (I'll double-check). Nonetheless, the writers were describing the weapons they actually saw. I have also been in a number of monasteries and temples in Tibet and have seen photos of others and did not see khuda even in collections (although there are certainly some there) or in wall paintings (something that I tend to study for weapons when I come across them in books or in the field). But I promise to look more carefully in the future.

In Tibetan iconography, you generally see archaic Indian weapons, as India was the source of Buddhism and a source of Buddhist teachers, and the artistic conventions are generally passed down and thus conservative. The appearance of now exotic and archaic weapons is undoubtedly part of the appeal of retaining such conventions, as the weapons are suitably otherworldly to be borne by a supernatural being. I think that that may be the appeal of the khuda here (but remember, these examples, which may be as few in number as three, were found at a single monastery in the south).

Archaeology in Tibet is still in its infancy, and is mostly now concentrating on the prehistoric era, so the lack of that sort of evidence is expected and far from conclusive, but in celebrated sites such as at Guge, seventeenth-century Indian weapons were found, but I don't recall seeing anything in the reports resembling a khuda.

Another problem is that very few Tibetans retain historical knowledge of traditional weapons, despite them being used as recently as a half century ago against the Red Army.

I don't pretend to know much about the Gorkhas, but they are traditionally considered to have originated in a Rajput clan that migrated into Nepal and no doubt represent a mixing of indigenous and outside peoples. If you have a new theory, I'm certainly not the one to dispute it.

And there are certainly Tibetans in Nepal, most notably the Sherpas and the people of Mustang or Lo Monthang in the west. They are generally considered to have come from the north and live in the north of Nepal.

I for one will consider the khuda to have originated in the south, given that it is prevalent in Nepal and northern India, until I see evidence to the contrary.

sirupate · 12th May 2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

I was recently re-reading Egerton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour and he made an interesting distinction. He attributed the kukri to the Gorkhas, and the kora to the "Nepali people." It's an interesting book, and while he's far from a perfect source, he was writing during the colonial time, when the Brits were dealing with the various tribes and kingdoms of India and the Himalayas.

Some intersting points there Fearn,

The main problem with Egerton's work is that he never visited Nepal, so information was at least third hand. The term Gorkhas is actualy quite a complicted one, and more to do with Rajput terminology, cerainley most Parbatiyas and definately the Kiranti would not consider themselves 'Gorkha', except in an employed military sense. However the kukri was universal in Nepal. The khunda is not universal in Nepal, and is infact comparitively rare, it is not commonly found in the villages of Nepal (so not a Nepali people weapon), remembering that Gorkha itself was only a village in reality!
I hope that helps a little, cheers Simon

sirupate · 12th May 2009, 06:45 PM

Hello Dennee,

Crossed posts!

Quote:

I don't pretend to know much about the Gorkhas, but they are traditionally considered to have originated in a Rajput clan that migrated into Nepal and no doubt represent a mixing of indigenous and outside peoples. If you have a new theory, I'm certainly not the one to dispute it.

Quite correct about the Rajput clan IMHO

Quote:

And there are certainly Tibetans in Nepal, most notably the Sherpas and the people of Mustang or Lo Monthang in the west. They are generally considered to have come from the north and live in the north of Nepal.

Tibetans are all over Nepal these days, and have an amazing ability to locate you when your trekking in some distant mountain to sell you their goods!!

Quote:

I for one will consider the khuda to have originated in the south, given that it is prevalent in Nepal and northern India, until I see evidence to the contrary

The khuda is not particularly prevalent in Nepal, but I agree it comes from the south, south of Nepal IMHO

dennee · 12th May 2009, 07:18 PM

Good, point, sirupate. Since the occupation of Tibet by Chinese troops, many Tibetans fled to Nepal. Before the twentieth century, Tibetan peoples were more concentrated in the north.

I didn't get into this discussion because of a special interest in khuda, but because of the characterization of a type of khuda as Tibetan. I'd sure like to know all about Tibetan weapons, so if the khuda is Tibetan or there is a Tibetan offshoot, I'd like to know. Hopefully, more information is forthcoming from our membership (and I'd like to hear discussion about the blade shapes in the photos), and I'm willing to keep my mind open enough to accept evidence that contradicts what I currently think. But the few examples I see in photos from the 1940s are not much more compelling as evidence of a Tibetan origin than is the fact that I have one hanging on my wall evidence of an eastern U.S. origin.

It is a general characteristic of traditional Tibetan blades longer than several inches that they are constructed of laminated steel. If we found khuda of laminated steel, for instance (as there are kukhri blades of laminated steel), we might have something as to the origin of the blade steel at least, if not necessarily its shape and its use, as the ultimate shape of a blade can be determined by the end users.

Gonzalo G · 13th May 2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

Unless I misread the above, there was reference to a "Tibetan" type of khuda. This may be a term of convenience, but I don't yet see a foundation for such an attribution or origin. I'd suggest then that until we have the evidence, we refrain from the attribution.
I don't pretend to know much about the Gorkhas, but they are traditionally considered to have originated in a Rajput clan that migrated into Nepal and no doubt represent a mixing of indigenous and outside peoples. If you have a new theory, I'm certainly not the one to dispute it.

And there are certainly Tibetans in Nepal, most notably the Sherpas and the people of Mustang or Lo Monthang in the west. They are generally considered to have come from the north and live in the north of Nepal.

I for one will consider the khuda to have originated in the south, given that it is prevalent in Nepal and northern India, until I see evidence to the contrary.

My attribution in fact is not so. I only present alternatives, based on the fact that we don´t have secure knowledge about most of this subject. I cannot make definitive statements about a matter over which not even the occidental specialists in ethnology, archaeology and history have not definitive answer, as far as I know. And I don´t pretend to have better knowledge about it. When I writte about a tibetan group, I mean the migration of the tibetan branch of the mongolic race which invaded Tibet and part of Nepal, and not to a latter migration from the Tibet. At least, this how it is described in my History of Central Asia. I can give bibliographical references about it. Those mongolic groups were not there, in Tibet and Nepal, in the more antique times, and this migration is documented. Maybe I am wrong about the gorkha, but I am talking not about the gorkha kingdom but about the gorkha ethnic group. Were they for sure rajputs? Or just considered so? I know there was an indian invassion into Nepal but, were they ethnically the ones considered as gorkha? Is there a definitive proof of this? I know the gorkha proclaimed themselves as descendants from the warrior-saint from which they took their name and from a rajput clan, but are we sure if this legend was not adopted by reasons of prestige and that in fact the gorkha population had not many mongolic elements with their own traditions? Then again, maybe I am wrong, but I understood that the indian ethnic group, which is not mongolic, came from that rajput invassion or migration into Nepal, but I cannot believe that they alone (this indian element) created the gorkha state from a confederation of smaller atates and latter unfied Nepal. Did the higher castes were integrated by this indian element alone? Or were the amalgamation of diverse ethnic groups? Some people states that gorkha were a nation from which a place took its name, and not otherwise, but then, wouldn´t it be the indian element the superior caste from which the mongolic groups would be excluded, or occupied inferior levels? Do we have definitive answers to this questions?

Otherwise, the kora could be originated as an indian weapon, and so the khukri. Maybe the indian element had a high level of prestige as carriers of a much advanced culture, and in fact those weapons developed in Nepal were originally carried by this ethnic element. I think that the fact the koras have been obsolete for many years does not make proof that they were not used in other times by the superior castes of all Nepal. I already had given some resons why they don´t appear in the villages and are not used anymore. Of course, it is only a conjeture and latter proofs can demostrate otherwise. But I think this actual absence is not enough proof to minimize or discard it as a nepali weapon.

My argument goes in the sense of questioning conjetures and hypothesis (and speculations) which had became official truth, and in the same way I answer to Simon: does the fact that Lord Egerton of Tatton DID travel to India (and I don´t), gives him better argument to state that this weapons are descent from the greek ones carried by Alexander the Great? I mean, of course this travels gives a great advantage about the weapons actually seen, and from the testimonies actually taken in those places. But testimonies have a relative value unless conffirmed in material evidence. Local historians could be biased or be less than competent in some areas of knowledge, specially when traditional historian are more interested in the great heros, leaders and kings, and in in great battles and gestures. Not many of them actually master the knowledge of the weapons used in those events. And sometimes, when they come to this point, they are vague and imprecise, as Polibius writting about the spanish gladius. I mentioned elsewere a study in which an actual historian demonstrate that the use of specific terms by the ancient classic historians to denominate certain greek weapons (kopis, machaira), in fact are terms referred to different weapons, and so the terms are very imprecise. Languaje complicate this problems. A saif, a kiliç and a shamshir means only ´swords´ in their original languajes, and not the taxonomic elements we have always understood by. Interpretations by occidental specialist complicates furthermore the situation. That is why I see the need to question what it has not to my eyes, enough scientific grounds.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jens Nordlunde · 13th May 2009, 02:56 PM

Thank you for the contribution to this thread, there really have been some very interesting comments, and thank you to Dennee for showing the pictures from Tibet, showing types, which I have not seen before.

What has been written in old books is not a proof in itself, as errors written long ago, have been repeated, sometimes as quotes, and sometimes with the new authors own words, so it can be hard to tell from where he has his knowledge.

To research the weapons of the Indian subcontinent, is not easy, so besides from books we should also take an interest in paintings, miniatures and stone monuments, as the last ones will give a good supplement to the first.

Unfortunately I can’t say how old the kora is, nor can I say from where it is, but I have a feeling it origins from somewhere around Decccan – unproven of course

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sirupate · 13th May 2009, 05:08 PM

Hello Gonzalo,

Quote:

When I writte about a tibetan group, I mean the migration of the tibetan branch of the mongolic race which invaded Tibet and part of Nepal, and not to a latter migration from the Tibet. At least, this how it is described in my History of Central Asia. I can give bibliographical references about it. Those mongolic groups were not there, in Tibet and Nepal, in the more antique times, and this migration is documented

I have to question what you mean here, are you referring to the Mongols themselves? Because the Parbatiyas and the Kiranti who make up the bulk of the British Gurkhas, probably had very little to do with the Mongols in their origins!

Quote:

but I am talking not about the gorkha kingdom but about the gorkha ethnic group

The Rajput Bhupal made his way to Parbatiya country, and then meeting up with the old Khas at Bhirkot he made is home there. Bhupal and his two sons are accredited as being the first Gorkha family. Gorkhas are basically of Rajput lineage and strict Hindu.

Quote:

and in the same way I answer to Simon: does the fact that Lord Egerton of Tatton DID travel to India (and I don´t), gives him better argument to state that this weapons are descent from the greek ones carried by Alexander the Great?

I would say that having only been to India puts him at a terrific disadvantage about the Nepalese kukri and khunda, I doubt he would have the same views as he has written, if had travelled to Nepal and been permitted access, providing he was able to get over the language barrier!

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2009, 07:56 PM

Hi,
Found these photographs on the net, the arrangement at the ricasso appears unusual for a Kora plus the pin through the hilt and scabbard stylistically, I think, points to an Indian origin for this piece. The langets look like they may have been removed from the hilt, whether this was done to an original blade/hilt marriage or the hilt has been removed from another weapon and modified and added at a later date is difficult to ascertain. The decoration on the pommel is very similar to a Tulwar I have, see thread entitled 'Tulwar Inscription'. Interesting discussion so far.
Regards,
Norman.

2nd May 2009, 03:33 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	How old is the Kora, and from where does it origin? I am reading in a booklet, ’A Catalogue of Arms and Armour in The State Museum, Hyderabad, A.P., 1975’, and here the author M. L. Nigam writes. “In the eastern parts of Deccan, some new weapons seem to have been introduced to suit to the regional needs of the people. The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs. The temple is datable to the second half of the eighth century AD. It may, therefore, be presumed that ‘Kora’, the favourite weapon of the Gurkhas, had come in vogue by the middle of eight century AD”. If the Kora, in the second half of the eight century was fully developed, it suggests to me, that it, as a type, must be quite a bit older, but from where did it come - any suggestions?

2nd May 2009, 07:32 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'd suggest that this form developed in many places due to the simple ergonomic function of such a shape for Early Man . Attached Images

12th May 2009, 05:33 AM	#19
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Four photos of Cham dancers at Pelkhor Choide monastery, Gyantse, Tibet, 1940s. The first is a photo from late 1942 taken by Brooke Dolan and Ilya Tolstoy and published in Rosemary Jones Tung's "A Portrait of Lost Tibet." The rest are from the late 1940s, taken by Pietro Francesco Mele and published in his book, "Tibet." You'll notice that the ends of the khuda are straight or concave, and the grips are sometimes very simple, with no pommel. In all the books I have read, I have never seen a reference to the use of khuda in Tibet except these photos. Gyantse is in the south, not a great distance to get khuda in trade or to have retained them from the Gorkha invasions in the 1790s and 1850s. Monasteries retained weapons in their protector chapels, and this weapon may have appealed for use in dances as suitably otherworldly for its exotic form. Attached Images

13th May 2009, 02:56 PM	#28
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the contribution to this thread, there really have been some very interesting comments, and thank you to Dennee for showing the pictures from Tibet, showing types, which I have not seen before. What has been written in old books is not a proof in itself, as errors written long ago, have been repeated, sometimes as quotes, and sometimes with the new authors own words, so it can be hard to tell from where he has his knowledge. To research the weapons of the Indian subcontinent, is not easy, so besides from books we should also take an interest in paintings, miniatures and stone monuments, as the last ones will give a good supplement to the first. Unfortunately I can’t say how old the kora is, nor can I say from where it is, but I have a feeling it origins from somewhere around Decccan – unproven of course.

13th May 2009, 07:56 PM	#30
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Found these photographs on the net, the arrangement at the ricasso appears unusual for a Kora plus the pin through the hilt and scabbard stylistically, I think, points to an Indian origin for this piece. The langets look like they may have been removed from the hilt, whether this was done to an original blade/hilt marriage or the hilt has been removed from another weapon and modified and added at a later date is difficult to ascertain. The decoration on the pommel is very similar to a Tulwar I have, see thread entitled 'Tulwar Inscription'. Interesting discussion so far. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

2nd May 2009, 06:55 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Jens, Excellent reference from this catalogue, and the subject of this weapon, the kora, and its origins will likely remain a subject of considerable debate indefinitely. This reference reinforces the importance of iconographic sources for study on the development of weapons, as architectural carvings and artwork are static, and can be soundly established with the dating of the structure itself as a rule. Certainly this must be qualified with the fact that many temples and such structures were works in progress over periods of time, but at least a reasonable benchmark can be established. It would seem that the kora, as a weapon, represents more of a concept than specific form, thus its development becomes a matter of perception in many ways rather than distinctly being observed in chronological and geographic lineage, as much as we would like to accomplish that very thing. As noted, the basic style of the kora is observed in the artwork at the Mukhalingesvara Temple which dates to middle 8th c. AD, and as you have noted, the form seems to have been fully developed by this time. The basis for the form itself seems to have come from the ancient Greek kopis, which is essentially an edged weapon with forward curved blade for powerful downward stroke, and its origins believed to derive from the even earlier form known as the Egyptian khopesh. This basic concept has often been assumed to associate the kora, kukri to the Greek kopis via the highly speculated and debated movements of Alexander in these northern regions in the 4th c. BC. The Greek kopis itself is believed to have likely been derived from a bill hook like implement used in slaughter of animals and cutting meat, much the same as this type implement is used in agriculture related utility with the Nepalese tribes, as well as thier ceremonial use in sacrificial ritual, with the kora. The heavier weight by widening the end, adds to the force of the downward cut of the concave edge, thus adding dramatically to the effect of this form of implement either as tool or weapon. With that being the case, it is not inconceivable that the concept might have developed independantly, while the subject of the kora in its distinct form is I think more the point of discussion here. We know that the kora, as such, is widely present not only in Nepal, but congruent regions of Bengal and Orissa. The prevalence of these in Bengal as early as the 17th century is established by provenanced examples in the Royal Danish Kunstkammer and recorded as East India sabres c.1674. It is noted by Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that most extant examples of the kora seem to be of 18th-19th c. The travel and adventure writer Fanny Parkes ("Wanderings of a Pilgrim", London, 1845, Vol. II p.243) refers to the kora as a 'bughalee', as noted in Elgood's glossary. While it may be presumed that as the wife of an EIC official and simply romantically observing esoterica, it is worthy of note that she was apparantly quite familiar with weaponry, as one reference shows; "...I have a pencil instead of a gun and it affords me satisfaction equal if not greater than the sportsman derives from his Manton". (Vol. II p.191). Manton= an famous British arms firm in Calcutta who produced shotguns and other weapons. While some travel writers simply offer vague descriptions of weapons, i.e. curved sword, shotgun etc. she is clearly specific, suggesting considerable veracity in her use of the term bughalee used for the 'kora'. The forward curved sword type was also well known on the Iberian peninsula as the falcata, and again, the associations between these, the kopis, the machaira and the khopesh are all ancient forms of this concept (though the blade curvature of the machaira deviates). To effectively link all of them or any of them directly to the kora or kukri must remain speculative, but the determination of the kora in form to the 8th century by this evidence seems well placed. As always, I look foward to the views of others, and this is what I think from what I have understood of previous research and discussions. All the best, Jim

5th May 2009, 07:39 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Interesting thread! I don´t have this material actually referenced, does anyone have pictures of this kora represented in the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga? Could it be that the name designates different weapons, as Jim seems to imply? Can we compare the koras mentioned by this authors with the ones produced in Nepal? I still cannot have a picture of the down curved blades from Ajanta! I have seem some other pictures from antique indian iconography, but the down curved blades does not seem remotely as khukris or koras (and for the same purpose, less as machairas, kopis, falcatas, falx and so on), and I don´t know how those weapons were named. At least, do we have a detailed description of this koras as to be sure about the whole geometry of the blade? Is it relevant tha fact mentioned before by Sirupate, in the sense that the word "kora" is not the one used in Nepal? Without better information and some images, all this must be taken very cautiuosly! Regards Gonzalo

5th May 2009, 04:17 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, Gonzalo, Thank you for your answers. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the stone piece from the 8th century, I only have what the author has written. After I started this thread, I have been told about a stone relief showing a man holding a kora/kora like sword, and this stone relief was dated to the 6th century. If one wants to study the very old weapons, the safest way to do so, is to study the stone reliefs, and there can be far between the reliefs’s where you see any weapons, but it is the safest way to learn about the subject. Old palm books can be interesting, but they seldom show a drawing of the weapons, and the names used, can often be used for several types of weapons.

9th May 2009, 04:53 PM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	From the Nepali perspective, there seems to be the thought (in Nepal) that it originated in India, and made its way into Nepal in the early 14th century, and it is classified as a Hindu sacrificial blade and weapon. It is intersting that the Khunda is not commonly found in the Villages of Nepal.

9th May 2009, 05:01 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What about the Tibetan Kora? Tibetans stem from the Mongoloid culture; did they also get their Kora from Hinduist India?

9th May 2009, 05:36 PM	#8
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Ariel, Are you referring to Sacrificial khunda? I must confess to never having come across Kora/Khunda from Tibet, only small swords and daggers, but Tibet is not my forte. It would seem odd to have a Hindu weapon/sacrificial blade in use, in a Buddist country? Tibetans are not just of Mongol origin btw.

9th May 2009, 05:43 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sirupate, Ariel, “In the eastern parts of Deccan, some new weapons seem to have been introduced to suit to the regional needs of the people. The ‘Kora’, which could produce deadly blows with its forward curved and broad tipped blade, appears, for the first time, in one of the sculptural panels carved in the second gate of the Mukhalingesvara temple at Mukhalinga,, the capital seat of the Eastern Ganga monarchs. The temple is datable to the second half of the eighth century AD. It may, therefore, be presumed that ‘Kora’, the favourite weapon of the Gurkhas, had come in vogue by the middle of eight century AD”. I really don’t know what the author means by the word ‘introduced’, but to me the word means that the kora was not ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but must have come from somewhere else – but from where? Maybe I misunderstand the author, and the kora really was ‘invented’ in eastern Deccan or Bengal, but if so, it is strange that they are seen on stone sculptures in this area, but as far as I know, not in the area between there and Nepal. How could they ‘jump’ from one place to another without leaving any traces? Well Ariel, I don’t know, and I can’t say, that I have ever seen a Tibetan kora. Do you have a picture you can show?

10th May 2009, 01:48 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Gonzalo, I have seen a few Kora complete with sheath but only a few, whether this is down to loss/damage or the possibility that many were used without a scabbard I don't know. The sheaths I have seen have been associated with what I would understand as the archetypal Nepalese Kora rather than the 'Tibetan' or 'Indian' forms. On another note, thank you for your kind remarks re my Tulwar Hilted Kora in a previous thread. My Regards, Norman.

11th May 2009, 03:47 AM	#14
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I'd love to see any good attributions of koras to Tibet. There were certainly examples found there, whether or not any originated there. There are some early to mid-twentieth-century photos of religious dancers with koras, and these koras are narrow, generally with a very convex end, unlike Nepalese examples, but they could have been modified. I haven't seen koras in other period photos or paintings from Tibet or in monasteries, but I have seen talwars, 'katars,' Indian shields, etc. Weapons made their way into Tibet in any number of ways, and many were donated to the protector chapels in monasteries. Koras may have been attractive for ceremonial use because of their exotic appearance and origins.

11th May 2009, 04:51 AM	#15
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Plate 41 in Rawson depicts two "Koras with sheaths covered with velvet; chapes and lockets of pierced and chased silver. From the collection of King Frederick VI. National Museum, Copenhagen". This image from John Powell shows a much more utilitarian version:

11th May 2009, 09:31 AM	#16
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Denee, do you still have access to those photo's? as I was speaking to a friend of mine, who has travelled extensively in Tibet, and he has not seen any Kora/khunda being used there at all, only the traditional Tibetan swords and knives. Nice picture Berkley, that appears to be a wooden handle on the khunda? The initial problem regarding Rawson works, appears to be no Nepalese input on the khunda.

11th May 2009, 01:42 PM	#17
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The grip is leather wrapped ferrous metal. My reference to Rawson was for the purpose of directing the reader to his photographs, which speak for themselves - the proverbial 1000 words, as it were, in neither Nepali nor English.

11th May 2009, 03:23 PM	#18
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Thanks for the answer on the handle Berkley, it looks to have a great grip.

12th May 2009, 08:08 AM	#20
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank YOU, Norman, for sharing your pieces and for your interesting points of view. Berk, very good material! I am always in a need of documental sources. Yes, I know there are some kora scabbards, but my point is if the kora was carried into battle with its scabbard or on the hands of the gorkha. I recall to have read somewere that koras were carried on hand into battle, but I have to check this source, and anyway I have not any certainty about the scientific grounds on which this statement was made. Anyway, these scabbards were in fact scabbards to carry the kora into battle, or only a kind of storage cases? Did this scabbards belong to sacrificial or to fighting koras? Or to both? There are precedents of swords carried into battle on hand, and I ignore if there are sources clearing this point. Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal? I am afraid that we do not have definitive answers based on ultimate scientific evidence. Intercourses among India, Nepal and the Tibet are a fact. But I wonder if the fact that the kora are used in chamanic rites, and this photos you provided are a proof of it, no matter there are no books in the occident dedicated to this subject, is a cricunstantial proof that the kora was in fact an old tibetan (in the ethnic, not the geographical sense) weapon. You know, those people taked very seriously their rites, and there are many precedents of very old and otherwise obsolete weapons from some ethnic gropus, only kept by the chamans or priests to be used on their rites. I think I recall bronze weapons used by roman and egiptian priests (and I believe judean also), in their ritual sacrifices, when iron or steel weapons already have been substituted the bronze ones. Even used flint knives instead, in other ethnic groups. We need first hand good sources from many countries, since the languaje is a barrier and there are not many nations represented here. And also, we need some well based knowledge on the archaeology and history on many areas not well known for the occidental scientific. For example, I have given sources to proof that not only europeans did in fact forged wootz, but also that in Spain wootz was imported and forged well into mid 19th Century, and my source was unknown only because it came from books written by spanish specialist in castilian languaje and published in 1850. So, there is a problem, and a big one, of lack of information, or from lack of information from available sources in an available languaje for the reader. This absence is not proof of any argument, but of the fact that we don´t have information. The important thing is to have a scientific attitude, recognizing what is a fact based on proof, and what is a probability based on reason, circunstantial facts, logic and so on, and finally, what is only speculation originated in cultural, phsycological, ideological or personal bias or interests. And when only testimonies are given as proof, keeping a healthy skepticism, since even actual archaeologic discoveries have given proof that the classic graeco-roman historians lied many times, were wrong or imprecise, based on the same bias or interests. Regards Gonzalo

12th May 2009, 04:29 PM	#21
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Dennee, many thanks for posting the pictures of the khuda, and for your explanation, they are certainley in the style of fighting khuda rather than sacrificial. They may well have got there not only through war, but through cultural exchange, which happened from time to time between Tibet and Nepal.

12th May 2009, 06:19 PM	#23
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Gonzalo, I appreciate your statement that the absence of proof is not in itself evidence, but you don't seem convinced of it. Unless I misread the above, there was reference to a "Tibetan" type of khuda. This may be a term of convenience, but I don't yet see a foundation for such an attribution or origin. I'd suggest then that until we have the evidence, we refrain from the attribution. True, while most of the books I have read were in English and written by westerners, not all are. And I don't know that I have seen in LaRocca's glossary, compiled from Tibetan-language sources, a description of a weapon that would neatly fit this, other than 'curved sword' generally (I'll double-check). Nonetheless, the writers were describing the weapons they actually saw. I have also been in a number of monasteries and temples in Tibet and have seen photos of others and did not see khuda even in collections (although there are certainly some there) or in wall paintings (something that I tend to study for weapons when I come across them in books or in the field). But I promise to look more carefully in the future. In Tibetan iconography, you generally see archaic Indian weapons, as India was the source of Buddhism and a source of Buddhist teachers, and the artistic conventions are generally passed down and thus conservative. The appearance of now exotic and archaic weapons is undoubtedly part of the appeal of retaining such conventions, as the weapons are suitably otherworldly to be borne by a supernatural being. I think that that may be the appeal of the khuda here (but remember, these examples, which may be as few in number as three, were found at a single monastery in the south). Archaeology in Tibet is still in its infancy, and is mostly now concentrating on the prehistoric era, so the lack of that sort of evidence is expected and far from conclusive, but in celebrated sites such as at Guge, seventeenth-century Indian weapons were found, but I don't recall seeing anything in the reports resembling a khuda. Another problem is that very few Tibetans retain historical knowledge of traditional weapons, despite them being used as recently as a half century ago against the Red Army. I don't pretend to know much about the Gorkhas, but they are traditionally considered to have originated in a Rajput clan that migrated into Nepal and no doubt represent a mixing of indigenous and outside peoples. If you have a new theory, I'm certainly not the one to dispute it. And there are certainly Tibetans in Nepal, most notably the Sherpas and the people of Mustang or Lo Monthang in the west. They are generally considered to have come from the north and live in the north of Nepal. I for one will consider the khuda to have originated in the south, given that it is prevalent in Nepal and northern India, until I see evidence to the contrary.

12th May 2009, 07:18 PM	#26
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Good, point, sirupate. Since the occupation of Tibet by Chinese troops, many Tibetans fled to Nepal. Before the twentieth century, Tibetan peoples were more concentrated in the north. I didn't get into this discussion because of a special interest in khuda, but because of the characterization of a type of khuda as Tibetan. I'd sure like to know all about Tibetan weapons, so if the khuda is Tibetan or there is a Tibetan offshoot, I'd like to know. Hopefully, more information is forthcoming from our membership (and I'd like to hear discussion about the blade shapes in the photos), and I'm willing to keep my mind open enough to accept evidence that contradicts what I currently think. But the few examples I see in photos from the 1940s are not much more compelling as evidence of a Tibetan origin than is the fact that I have one hanging on my wall evidence of an eastern U.S. origin. It is a general characteristic of traditional Tibetan blades longer than several inches that they are constructed of laminated steel. If we found khuda of laminated steel, for instance (as there are kukhri blades of laminated steel), we might have something as to the origin of the blade steel at least, if not necessarily its shape and its use, as the ultimate shape of a blade can be determined by the end users.