Scabbard Mount ID please

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 11:26 AM

Gilded Bronze:

RSWORD · 29th March 2009, 03:39 PM

I would classify this scabbard mount as Indo-Persian.

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I would classify this scabbard mount as Indo-Persian.

Thanks mate,
On closer inspection it does appear to be mercurial gilding. I thought it might do for my Shamshir (which is why I bought it).
Any idea what the suspension loop represents? It looks like a Buddhist thunderbolt.

Thanks again
Gene

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 04:23 PM

What an interesting post Gene!!
Its funny, I never realized how much is in a simple component like a scabbard mount like this, and how intriguing it is just to look at its motif.
While we seem to always be focused on the weapons comprehensively, and make cursory note of individual elements, there is seldom such key focus as this.
Perhaps that is why in the field of Japanese swords there are those who collect tsuba only. I have even heard of instances of collectors whose field is entirely on scabbards, which I must admit seems very unusual.

In studying Asian swords, and the development of sword forms westward, there was an entire study by Trousdale on the development of the scabbard slide, and examples discovered archaeologically.

I just wanted to note as an aside.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What an interesting post Gene!!
Its funny, I never realized how much is in a simple component like a scabbard mount like this, and how intriguing it is just to look at its motif.
While we seem to always be focused on the weapons comprehensively, and make cursory note of individual elements, there is seldom such key focus as this.
Perhaps that is why in the field of Japanese swords there are those who collect tsuba only. I have even heard of instances of collectors whose field is entirely on scabbards, which I must admit seems very unusual.

In studying Asian swords, and the development of sword forms westward, there was an entire study by Trousdale on the development of the scabbard slide, and examples discovered archaeologically.

I just wanted to note as an aside.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your input, I think you've mirrored my own interest in this piece.
First I saw it and thought 'shamshir' mount. Then (once I'd bought it) I started to look at the decoration. In fact I wondered briefly if it was Chinese because of the shape of the suspension loop.
I suppose the shape could just as easily represent a dome?
I was a bit puzzled by the 'clover' design as well, but then (exactly as you pointed out) I realised that despite having seen many probobly similar mounts still in situ over the years, I've never really studied them closely because I've always been looking at the sword itself.

Regards
Gene

P.S. Any ideas/thoughts on this one in particular?

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 07:35 PM

Hi Gene,
Rick is spot on (of course!!

the scabbard mount is distinctly of the form seen on Mughal sheaths of the 17th century (Pant, plate XXV) with the same shape suspension fixture. The one shown in Pant has Arabic inscription in Nastaliq script.
Excellent observation on the shape of the suspension fixture, which does resemble the 'vajra' or thunderbolt, a key symbol in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. It is interesting that decorative motif in India on weapons in particular, often borrowed themes and motif from elements in degree from all of these Faiths.
The clovers are interesting motif and may have associations to the Trimurti, though this seems an unusual application. I guess looking into similar use in some of the material culture might offer some clues.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 09:38 PM

Addendum:

Ok, I was going berserk trying to figure out what in the world Mughal India and shamrocks had to do with each other! Trying to find information on the lowly three leaf clover is nearly impossible..its all about the four leafs.

In "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood, 2004, p.122, figs 11.19 & 11.22) are swords with pommels having three sphere form, representing botanicals such as lotus buds, and associated with 16th century Mughal weapons.
The theme indeed represents the trimurti (trinity) of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, and it is further noted on p.126 that "...the symbol, like that denoting clubs on a pack of cards, occurs as a decorative motif on temples such as Gangaikondacholapuram"... (now try to pronounce that one !

) "...which was built in the early 11th. c."

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gene,
Rick is spot on (of course!!

the scabbard mount is distinctly of the form seen on Mughal sheaths of the 17th century (Pant, plate XXV) with the same shape suspension fixture. The one shown in Pant has Arabic inscription in Nastaliq script.
Excellent observation on the shape of the suspension fixture, which does resemble the 'vajra' or thunderbolt, a key symbol in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. It is interesting that decorative motif in India on weapons in particular, often borrowed themes and motif from elements in degree from all of these Faiths.
The clovers are interesting motif and may have associations to the Trimurti, though this seems an unusual application. I guess looking into similar use in some of the material culture might offer some clues.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim!

17thC? Well I hadn't dared to think it was that early!

Although probobly not suitable for my rather plain sword, certainly quite a cute little thing in its own right.
Thank you very much for your help.
Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:

Ok, I was going berserk trying to figure out what in the world Mughal India and shamrocks had to do with each other! Trying to find information on the lowly three leaf clover is nearly impossible..its all about the four leafs.

In "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood, 2004, p.122, figs 11.19 & 11.22) are swords with pommels having three sphere form, representing botanicals such as lotus buds, and associated with 16th century Mughal weapons.
The theme indeed represents the trimurti (trinity) of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, and it is further noted on p.126 that "...the symbol, like that denoting clubs on a pack of cards, occurs as a decorative motif on temples such as Gangaikondacholapuram"... (now try to pronounce that one !

) "...which was built in the early 11th. c."

Truly, I am in awe buddy!
What a strange way for me to finally own a part of a sword from the Mughal period!
God I wish I had the rest of it

Do you think 17thc is about secure date wise?
I'm really not sure when gilding became commonplace in that part of the world?

Thanks
Gene

ward · 29th March 2009, 10:13 PM

Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,gilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doubtful.

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,guilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doughtful.

Hi mate, don't be sorry!
I'm not particularly bothered if its later. Its certainly antique, 'just' antique or 17thC , its all good!
when I think of the 'hayday' of guilding it's the late 18th through the 19th.
Anywhere in that period is fine in this case, if I think it'll go on my Shamshir, and I can be bothered to construct a scabbard then it can stay, otherwise it'll be off on its travels!

ward · 29th March 2009, 10:52 PM

I think 19th century is a good dating

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 11:07 PM

Hi Gene,
I'm glad I could help, and I apologize for not stating my findings more clearly. I meant to note that this style mount was of the form seen on 17th century Mughal scabbards, but clearly this is much later as Ward has aptly noted, and I entirely agree with 19th century assessment.

It is important to remember that while blades were typically heirlooms, and hilt mounts and scabbards were often refurbished through generations. With this being the case, traditions in elemental style were typically maintained in degree, with of course subtle customizing according to the new owner.

Since this is compellingly a Mughal piece, in my opinion it would not seem at all out of place on a shamshir, a highly prized weapon in Mughal courts.
Essentially you are simply following a well established tradition

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 30th March 2009, 02:52 PM

Brilliant, thank you gentlemen, I'm happy with 19thC as a most likely date, it confirms my inital thoughts (based soley on the guilding).

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 12:23 AM

Hi Gene,
Just a little addendum here that I found extremely interesting. As I was browsing through on book on prehistoric to ancient shamanism, I was completely stunned by an illustration of a group of knives from the European Iron Age, around 1st c. B.C.
These were found in excavated tomb from St.Georges les Baillargeaux (Vienne), and the ring type pommels were open rings in remarkably the same shape as this suspension ring, and were believed for rituals by a shaman.

What is interesting here is to see how incredibly far back these stylized shapes and forms extended, and how influences from other regions in ancient times diffused into the Indian subcontinent. While not suggesting any direct contact of course, it is like most actual trade diffusion, the result of tribal or group interaction in the farthest regions of certain cultural or tribal spheres with others moving in the directions extending far beyond to other frontiers.
I believe in anthropology this type of diffusion and influence may be considered folk memory in degree.

Just thought it might be interesting,
All the best,
Jim

rand · 6th April 2009, 02:00 AM

Hi Gene,

Reguarding the date and origen of this copper gilt suspension ring mount a 19th century date would be my opinion because of a number of factors all adding to that conclusion. The availablility, value and cost of different alloys changed over time and copper and brass became more commenly used in the 19th century than in previous centuries. Then you have the punch round dot background filler design again more a trend of the 19th century, especially India. Next you have an unprecise trilobe floral design that also suggests a later crafsman, in general earlier work is more precise. And finally the lack of any pierce work on the upper hanger itself, when all put together point me to 19th century India......

You could look to see what the different parts are brazed together with, then again because its copper there is the possibility oh being cast

Now your real problem is finding a matching piece.....

rand

29th March 2009, 11:26 AM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Scabbard Mount ID please Gilded Bronze:

29th March 2009, 10:13 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,gilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doubtful. Last edited by ward; 30th March 2009 at 04:07 AM.

6th April 2009, 02:00 AM	#16
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Suspension Mount Hi Gene, Reguarding the date and origen of this copper gilt suspension ring mount a 19th century date would be my opinion because of a number of factors all adding to that conclusion. The availablility, value and cost of different alloys changed over time and copper and brass became more commenly used in the 19th century than in previous centuries. Then you have the punch round dot background filler design again more a trend of the 19th century, especially India. Next you have an unprecise trilobe floral design that also suggests a later crafsman, in general earlier work is more precise. And finally the lack of any pierce work on the upper hanger itself, when all put together point me to 19th century India...... You could look to see what the different parts are brazed together with, then again because its copper there is the possibility oh being cast Now your real problem is finding a matching piece..... rand

29th March 2009, 03:39 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I would classify this scabbard mount as Indo-Persian.

29th March 2009, 04:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	What an interesting post Gene!! Its funny, I never realized how much is in a simple component like a scabbard mount like this, and how intriguing it is just to look at its motif. While we seem to always be focused on the weapons comprehensively, and make cursory note of individual elements, there is seldom such key focus as this. Perhaps that is why in the field of Japanese swords there are those who collect tsuba only. I have even heard of instances of collectors whose field is entirely on scabbards, which I must admit seems very unusual. In studying Asian swords, and the development of sword forms westward, there was an entire study by Trousdale on the development of the scabbard slide, and examples discovered archaeologically. I just wanted to note as an aside. All best regards, Jim

29th March 2009, 07:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Gene, Rick is spot on (of course!! the scabbard mount is distinctly of the form seen on Mughal sheaths of the 17th century (Pant, plate XXV) with the same shape suspension fixture. The one shown in Pant has Arabic inscription in Nastaliq script. Excellent observation on the shape of the suspension fixture, which does resemble the 'vajra' or thunderbolt, a key symbol in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. It is interesting that decorative motif in India on weapons in particular, often borrowed themes and motif from elements in degree from all of these Faiths. The clovers are interesting motif and may have associations to the Trimurti, though this seems an unusual application. I guess looking into similar use in some of the material culture might offer some clues. All the best, Jim

29th March 2009, 09:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Addendum: Ok, I was going berserk trying to figure out what in the world Mughal India and shamrocks had to do with each other! Trying to find information on the lowly three leaf clover is nearly impossible..its all about the four leafs. In "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood, 2004, p.122, figs 11.19 & 11.22) are swords with pommels having three sphere form, representing botanicals such as lotus buds, and associated with 16th century Mughal weapons. The theme indeed represents the trimurti (trinity) of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, and it is further noted on p.126 that "...the symbol, like that denoting clubs on a pack of cards, occurs as a decorative motif on temples such as Gangaikondacholapuram"... (now try to pronounce that one ! ) "...which was built in the early 11th. c."

29th March 2009, 10:52 PM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I think 19th century is a good dating

29th March 2009, 11:07 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Gene, I'm glad I could help, and I apologize for not stating my findings more clearly. I meant to note that this style mount was of the form seen on 17th century Mughal scabbards, but clearly this is much later as Ward has aptly noted, and I entirely agree with 19th century assessment. It is important to remember that while blades were typically heirlooms, and hilt mounts and scabbards were often refurbished through generations. With this being the case, traditions in elemental style were typically maintained in degree, with of course subtle customizing according to the new owner. Since this is compellingly a Mughal piece, in my opinion it would not seem at all out of place on a shamshir, a highly prized weapon in Mughal courts. Essentially you are simply following a well established tradition All the best, Jim

30th March 2009, 02:52 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Brilliant, thank you gentlemen, I'm happy with 19thC as a most likely date, it confirms my inital thoughts (based soley on the guilding).

1st April 2009, 12:23 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Gene, Just a little addendum here that I found extremely interesting. As I was browsing through on book on prehistoric to ancient shamanism, I was completely stunned by an illustration of a group of knives from the European Iron Age, around 1st c. B.C. These were found in excavated tomb from St.Georges les Baillargeaux (Vienne), and the ring type pommels were open rings in remarkably the same shape as this suspension ring, and were believed for rituals by a shaman. What is interesting here is to see how incredibly far back these stylized shapes and forms extended, and how influences from other regions in ancient times diffused into the Indian subcontinent. While not suggesting any direct contact of course, it is like most actual trade diffusion, the result of tribal or group interaction in the farthest regions of certain cultural or tribal spheres with others moving in the directions extending far beyond to other frontiers. I believe in anthropology this type of diffusion and influence may be considered folk memory in degree. Just thought it might be interesting, All the best, Jim