Strange Keris for Comment (alert)

BSMStar · 20th April 2005, 03:14 AM

Any one want to comment on the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Ian · 20th April 2005, 03:23 AM

BSMStar:

Are you concerned that the hilt and scabbard appear to be made of plastic and the pamor created by using bicycle wheel spokes applied to a ground metal "blade?" Otherwise it seems to be as described.

Ian.

LabanTayo · 20th April 2005, 03:25 AM

ummmm.......
my mother said that if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
so....
thats the nicest plastic keris ive seen in a long time. i really like the cast /etched pamor. and how the selut gives the hulu breathing room.
there, now my mom will be proud of me.

RSWORD · 20th April 2005, 04:48 AM

I think this is a good example to help illustrate to novice collectors how important it is to follow Caveat Emptor advice. In this example, you have an Ebay seller with perfect feedback. Let us assume they had no misrepresentative intent. They have simply incorrectly identified a piece and made a few bold, unsubstantianted claims. (elephant ivory for example, artistic blade is debatable). Obviously, those claims along with adequate pictures was enough for someone to have confidence to bid and meet reserve. I'm not sure, but Ian probably noticed two things about the ivory designation. One, in the close up shots, there is no grain. Elephant ivory has a distinct grain. Second, he probably noticed what looks like a hot pin prick on top of the piece. It looks as though someone tested it for ivory in the past and found out a hot needle would easily sink in. He also noticed that the "pamor" on the blade was artificially created. He has gained this experience through years and years and years and years(sorry Ian

) of experience handling pieces where the blades pamor was forged and not so artificially created. (looks to be a wax resist with a strong, strong acid added to eat away the exposed metal). As this is an educational forum, I thought this was a good example to point out what a more experienced eye can see in a piece to help prevent one from making buying mistakes. (not that they don't ever happen to the most experienced collectors, but you lessen your chances with education.)

Andrew · 20th April 2005, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

He has gained this experience through years and years and years and years(sorry Ian

) of experience handling pieces where the blades pamor was forged and not so artificially created.

lol!

nechesh · 20th April 2005, 05:29 AM

Very well put Rick. The only thing i DO find noteworthy about this auction is that the piece actually managed to top $200. Given the nicely described photos that is both sad and amazing.

Andrew · 20th April 2005, 06:11 AM

Someone bid for ivory.

Ian · 20th April 2005, 06:13 AM

Thanks Rick ...

This item reminds me of a thread we had way back in, oh let me see, '98 or so -- before my "brother" Rick (RSWORD) started collecting, and my "other brother" Rick (the original and true one) was even then moderating away -- when we talked about "sword-like objects." Seems like we had some good examples of first-rate junk back in them days too, traditional fakes not this plastic crap ya see today. Can't quite recollect what that thread was called -- the memory fades, ya know, after all them years and years and years and ... of collecting.

Alam Shah · 20th April 2005, 10:07 AM

I pity the buyer, though.

The so-called 'blade' is a typical talismanic piece which could be bought for less than $10.

On the other hand, this is the real stuff. Compare them.
This fittings are made of elephant ivory. Have a look at the grains.

http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker..._singaraja.htm

BSMStar · 20th April 2005, 02:05 PM

Alam Shah,

That is a beautiful ivory dress (drool) with one of my favorite hulus (where does Adni find all of that great stuff)!

I had to share this plastic piece and fake blade... as others have noted, someone paid a "pretty penny" for this and I thought I would bring it to the attention of the not so well informed.

Battara · 20th April 2005, 09:32 PM

One more thing to add: the carving is not like that of past masters, or past fakers for that matter.

Alam Shah · 21st April 2005, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Alam Shah,
I had to share this plastic piece and fake blade... as others have noted, someone paid a "pretty penny" for this and I thought I would bring it to the attention of the not so well informed.

Hi BSMStar,

I agree with you. It's a good idea to inform/post it here.
Likewise, i've posted the link to Adni's item for comparison, for the not so well informed.

RobT · 21st April 2005, 03:47 AM

I was surprised to see nine bids on that item. But what was really shocking was the ebay handle of one of the high bidders. One would think with a name like that he or she would have known better. If the bidding was indeed driven by the ivory (and I agree with Andrew that it was), then ignorant speculators might see a large number of faux pieces coming their way. This may not serve to reduce the level of ignorance but hopefully it will reduce the number of those willing to speculate.
Sincerely,
RobT

rahman · 21st April 2005, 04:12 AM

I don't think it would be terribly difficult to forge grain on plastic, so we can expect to see better quality plastic replicas soon. See the separate thread on plastic keris. And it would be rather difficult to tell the difference from photos on ebay. I personally would hesitate to buy any ivory just from photos.

Unfortunately, buyers were taken in by the very low opening bid for what they took to be real ivory

Alam Shah is right that the blade may have talismanic qualities, but it's not pamur but some kind of inlay. I have one that my father bought for a very low price from Semarang (Indonesia) 50 years ago.

Conogre · 21st April 2005, 07:30 AM

About four years ago, a friend was buying items in Bali on yearly trips, then financing her trips by EBaying the items she brought back.....it was about this time that she brought back keris, similar to the one pictured (the fake), kanjars, and khoumiyas, all with blades made as described by Ian.
The blades appear to have been machine stamped, due to the rounded edges, and the "pamor" applied by painting molten metal onto the base blade.
Other "faux" materials seen were ebony, ivory and Onyx and even animal teeth.
As near as could be determined, I believe these disgustingly cheap fakes (seen up close, they are appalling) are being produced in Irianjaya, along with the brown/yellow mandaus, spears, axes and shields.
Ian, were the blades you examined even magnetic?
Several that I saw with the "artificial" pamor were apparently poured or stamped out of very cheap, non-magnetic pot metal.
Mike

20th April 2005, 03:14 AM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Strange Keris for Comment (alert) Any one want to comment on the following: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

20th April 2005, 03:23 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	BSMStar: Are you concerned that the hilt and scabbard appear to be made of plastic and the pamor created by using bicycle wheel spokes applied to a ground metal "blade?" Otherwise it seems to be as described. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 20th April 2005 at 03:34 AM.

20th April 2005, 10:07 AM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	an example of the real stuff... I pity the buyer, though. The so-called 'blade' is a typical talismanic piece which could be bought for less than $10. On the other hand, this is the real stuff. Compare them. This fittings are made of elephant ivory. Have a look at the grains. http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker..._singaraja.htm Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th April 2005 at 10:18 AM.

21st April 2005, 03:47 AM	#13
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 492	9 bids I was surprised to see nine bids on that item. But what was really shocking was the ebay handle of one of the high bidders. One would think with a name like that he or she would have known better. If the bidding was indeed driven by the ivory (and I agree with Andrew that it was), then ignorant speculators might see a large number of faux pieces coming their way. This may not serve to reduce the level of ignorance but hopefully it will reduce the number of those willing to speculate. Sincerely, RobT

20th April 2005, 03:25 AM	#3
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	ummmm....... my mother said that if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all. so.... thats the nicest plastic keris ive seen in a long time. i really like the cast /etched pamor. and how the selut gives the hulu breathing room. there, now my mom will be proud of me.

20th April 2005, 04:48 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I think this is a good example to help illustrate to novice collectors how important it is to follow Caveat Emptor advice. In this example, you have an Ebay seller with perfect feedback. Let us assume they had no misrepresentative intent. They have simply incorrectly identified a piece and made a few bold, unsubstantianted claims. (elephant ivory for example, artistic blade is debatable). Obviously, those claims along with adequate pictures was enough for someone to have confidence to bid and meet reserve. I'm not sure, but Ian probably noticed two things about the ivory designation. One, in the close up shots, there is no grain. Elephant ivory has a distinct grain. Second, he probably noticed what looks like a hot pin prick on top of the piece. It looks as though someone tested it for ivory in the past and found out a hot needle would easily sink in. He also noticed that the "pamor" on the blade was artificially created. He has gained this experience through years and years and years and years(sorry Ian ) of experience handling pieces where the blades pamor was forged and not so artificially created. (looks to be a wax resist with a strong, strong acid added to eat away the exposed metal). As this is an educational forum, I thought this was a good example to point out what a more experienced eye can see in a piece to help prevent one from making buying mistakes. (not that they don't ever happen to the most experienced collectors, but you lessen your chances with education.)

20th April 2005, 05:29 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Very well put Rick. The only thing i DO find noteworthy about this auction is that the piece actually managed to top $200. Given the nicely described photos that is both sad and amazing.

20th April 2005, 06:11 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Someone bid for ivory.

20th April 2005, 06:13 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Thanks Rick ... This item reminds me of a thread we had way back in, oh let me see, '98 or so -- before my "brother" Rick (RSWORD) started collecting, and my "other brother" Rick (the original and true one) was even then moderating away -- when we talked about "sword-like objects." Seems like we had some good examples of first-rate junk back in them days too, traditional fakes not this plastic crap ya see today. Can't quite recollect what that thread was called -- the memory fades, ya know, after all them years and years and years and ... of collecting.

20th April 2005, 02:05 PM	#10
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Alam Shah, That is a beautiful ivory dress (drool) with one of my favorite hulus (where does Adni find all of that great stuff)! I had to share this plastic piece and fake blade... as others have noted, someone paid a "pretty penny" for this and I thought I would bring it to the attention of the not so well informed.

20th April 2005, 09:32 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	One more thing to add: the carving is not like that of past masters, or past fakers for that matter.

21st April 2005, 04:12 AM	#14
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	I don't think it would be terribly difficult to forge grain on plastic, so we can expect to see better quality plastic replicas soon. See the separate thread on plastic keris. And it would be rather difficult to tell the difference from photos on ebay. I personally would hesitate to buy any ivory just from photos. Unfortunately, buyers were taken in by the very low opening bid for what they took to be real ivory Alam Shah is right that the blade may have talismanic qualities, but it's not pamur but some kind of inlay. I have one that my father bought for a very low price from Semarang (Indonesia) 50 years ago.

21st April 2005, 07:30 AM	#15
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	About four years ago, a friend was buying items in Bali on yearly trips, then financing her trips by EBaying the items she brought back.....it was about this time that she brought back keris, similar to the one pictured (the fake), kanjars, and khoumiyas, all with blades made as described by Ian. The blades appear to have been machine stamped, due to the rounded edges, and the "pamor" applied by painting molten metal onto the base blade. Other "faux" materials seen were ebony, ivory and Onyx and even animal teeth. As near as could be determined, I believe these disgustingly cheap fakes (seen up close, they are appalling) are being produced in Irianjaya, along with the brown/yellow mandaus, spears, axes and shields. Ian, were the blades you examined even magnetic? Several that I saw with the "artificial" pamor were apparently poured or stamped out of very cheap, non-magnetic pot metal. Mike