What a bizarre sword!

ariel · 2nd February 2009, 03:47 AM

From another forum.
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/79/416782-0.html
There is a muzeum description ( upper right corner). French speakers, enlarge, and translate, please!

RSWORD · 2nd February 2009, 04:32 AM

Even more unusual that the thing has a scabbard!

VANDOO · 2nd February 2009, 04:41 AM

AHA! THE DEADLY SOCK SWORD CARRIED BY FRENCH FOOT SOLDIERS

Emanuel · 2nd February 2009, 05:07 AM

The top is a physical description of the blade and handle, which apparently is in the shape of a gun handle (in the oriental style)
The interesting bit is partly covered up by the scabbard.

"Ce sabre a ete _____ Cavalerie Legere espagnole pendant la
Campagne de 180 _____ par les ___ des chevaux de la Cavalerie
Lourde francaise p_____
Cree par le general_____"

"This sabre has been____ Spanish Light cavalry during the
Campaign of 180_____by the ___ of the horses of the French
Heavy Cavalry___
Created by the general ____"

So all the important parts are lost

It's an early 1800s sword though, unless the 0 is something else. Napoleon's invasion of Spain??

Maybe something like a zaghnal? And since it has something to do with horses, maybe it was used to trip cavalry. Napoleon had some Mameluke troops at the time didn't he?

Emanuel

Emanuel · 2nd February 2009, 05:16 AM

And here is the sword in question with the blown up description.

Emanuel · 2nd February 2009, 05:21 AM

- double post - please delete

Emanuel · 2nd February 2009, 05:22 AM

Notice that from the angle of the handle and its shadow, the scikle part actually turns backwards...that or the handle is put on the wrong way.

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2009, 04:54 PM

Bizarre is an understatement !!! I sit here staring at this thing after completely losing control after Vandoo's 'deadly foot sword' comment !!! LOL!
and trying to see if the scabbard opens all the way down the back.

Emanuel offers some rational thoughts, and trying to break through the humor I am completely baffled by this.
Looking forward to some more clues,
as Holmes always says to Watson,
"...the games afoot!!"

sorry, couldn't help it,

Jim

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2009, 05:09 PM

The work on the scabbard reminds me of Kaskra and Shotel? If it was used like a Mambele the handle would be the right way round?

mross · 2nd February 2009, 06:11 PM

Looks to me to be 10 Iron for use when it's really rough.

Ferguson · 3rd February 2009, 03:07 AM

That's just cool. Notice how the back of the scabbard is open. The guard fits over the mouth of the scabbard to hold the sword in.

Steve

G. McCormack · 3rd February 2009, 05:57 AM

blade is maybe shaped like a letter, calligraphy from some script? How odd...

katana · 3rd February 2009, 01:24 PM

Interesting weapon ....the sickle 'end' seems to have a central ridge....suggesting a 'diamond' cross-section. If this is the case it is double edged....so perhaps the handle is correctly placed.

I can see this being used to 'ham string' Cavalry Horses ....

Regards David

fernando · 3rd February 2009, 02:25 PM

Could it be:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

... "Ce sabre a ete utilisé par la Cavalerie Legere espagnole pendant la Campagne de 180 _____ pour couper les jarrets des chevaux de la Cavalerie Lourde francaise p_____Cree par le general_____"

"This sabre has been used by the Spanish Light cavalry during the Campaign of 180_____ for cutting the hamstrings of the horses of the French Heavy Cavalry___ Created by the general ____ ...

A version of halberd blade, used to cut the horses tendons ?

.
Fernando

Emanuel · 3rd February 2009, 04:39 PM

"jarrets" looks right Fernando, i couldn't make out the word.

Mystery solved then about what it's for

Now who the hell came up with it.

David, the handle bulb is not facing the same way as the scickle part, that's why I said it might be on the wrong way.

Emanuel

katana · 3rd February 2009, 05:04 PM

Hi Emanuel,
intuitively I believe the outer edge of the sickle would have been mainly used for the 'cut'.

Bravo Fernando....it was there for all to see....if you can decipher Francais...my French is limited to "je voudrais une bière "

I also found that a common tactic during the Madhist uprising involved tribesman hiding/playing dead during the initial Cavalry charge and melee.....and then trying to hamstring the horses on their return .....often using their Kaskara

Regards David

Spunjer · 3rd February 2009, 05:47 PM

lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

fernando · 3rd February 2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

....if you can decipher Francais...my French is limited to "je voudrais une bière "

I thought you Brits could only say: gi'me a pint a bitter

Fernando

katana · 3rd February 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

I do hope there's a shorter version

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I thought you Brits could only say: gi'me a pint a bitter

Fernando

Now....now Fernando, not all us Brits are the same....
.......some might say.... 'gi'me a lager'

Regards
David

fearn · 4th February 2009, 05:40 AM

Good grief!

Actually, I think this "sword" came early in the evolution of the game of hockey. It's what they used before they invented hockey sticks. They had to switch to sticks because they were losing too many players to the noble sport of Spanish Sword Hockey.

The Basques also preserved a version of Spanish Sword Hockey, except they called it Jai-alai......

Best,

F

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I do hope there's a shorter version

Now....now Fernando, not all us Brits are the same....
.......some might say.... 'gi'me a lager'

Regards
David

We have a reputation for being masters of the double entendre!
So it would be "Mine's a large one!"

Oriental-Arms · 5th February 2009, 01:14 PM

About a year ago this sword (or a very similar one) landed in Tel Aviv, Israel. A colleague collector purchased it in a very respected shop in Paris, hence i suspect it is the very same sword. The seller (which I consider a knowlegeable one) said exactly what is in written in the label shown above: Spanish, late 19 C. used again the French cavalry.

I had the questionable pleasure to restore the scabbard which arrived quite shattered (mailing damage). Yesterday I visited this collector and took few photos - Attached.

The blade is very well forged, with a central fuller, double edged on its entire length. The grips are hardwood and scabbard is wood with steel reinforcing mounts - all painted black (original color). Two carrying rings. Total length 36 inches.

Enjoy it.

broadaxe · 5th February 2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Could it be:

A version of halberd blade, used to cut the horses tendons ?

.
Fernando

I had seen this sword in person several years ago in the mentioned store, Paris. The seller caimed the same.

Ha ha

some intersting things do end up over here...

nKante · 6th February 2009, 05:08 PM

it seems difficult to swing! Would it have been used hanging low, trailing behind the rider in order to slice a passing horse? I could also see it cutting saddle straps that way.

ariel · 7th February 2009, 02:48 AM

I do not think so: it looks like a kind of scythe. Must have been swung widely, to slash through anything in its way: a Grim Reaper, if you like.
If so, the rest ( kris-type "luks", blade with a fuller etc) was just for show.
In the medieval Europe, scythe blades were mounted vertically on a long handle, making them a formidable peasant weapon.

broadaxe · 9th February 2009, 05:18 PM

I had the chance to swing it a little today

amazingly light and well ballanced, high quality. It is, however, somewhat awkward due to its weird "scorpion sting" shaped blade, and one should pay extra attention as it is sharp all the way around. The cage-like sub-guard holds the sword sheathed in place.

asomotif · 10th February 2009, 12:23 AM

Amazing sword...

I have not too much problems with swords, knives and whatever injuries they inflict to soldiers/warriors in combat situation.
But thinking of the horse that encounters this monsterous blade

In London there is a memorial for animals saying "they had no choice".
Food for thought

Rick · 10th February 2009, 01:19 AM

I always think of the Horses .

The first target ....

Thankfully we need them no more for combat .

fernando · 10th February 2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

... Thankfully we need them no more for combat .

Cool

ariel · 10th February 2009, 04:01 AM

It used to be claimed that the modern prohibition of the "below the belt" hit in saber fencing stems from the old ban on hitting the horse during cavalry fights.
In fact, horse was always a desired target and this is indirectly witnessed by the elaborate horse armor in each and every military culture.

All is fair in love and war.

2nd February 2009, 03:47 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What a bizarre sword! From another forum. http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/79/416782-0.html There is a muzeum description ( upper right corner). French speakers, enlarge, and translate, please!

2nd February 2009, 05:16 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And here is the sword in question with the blown up description. Attached Images

3rd February 2009, 01:24 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Interesting weapon ....the sickle 'end' seems to have a central ridge....suggesting a 'diamond' cross-section. If this is the case it is double edged....so perhaps the handle is correctly placed. I can see this being used to 'ham string' Cavalry Horses .... Regards David Attached Images

5th February 2009, 01:14 PM	#22
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Bizar sword About a year ago this sword (or a very similar one) landed in Tel Aviv, Israel. A colleague collector purchased it in a very respected shop in Paris, hence i suspect it is the very same sword. The seller (which I consider a knowlegeable one) said exactly what is in written in the label shown above: Spanish, late 19 C. used again the French cavalry. I had the questionable pleasure to restore the scabbard which arrived quite shattered (mailing damage). Yesterday I visited this collector and took few photos - Attached. The blade is very well forged, with a central fuller, double edged on its entire length. The grips are hardwood and scabbard is wood with steel reinforcing mounts - all painted black (original color). Two carrying rings. Total length 36 inches. Enjoy it. Attached Images

10th February 2009, 01:19 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Sad I always think of the Horses . The first target .... Thankfully we need them no more for combat .

2nd February 2009, 04:32 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Even more unusual that the thing has a scabbard!

2nd February 2009, 04:41 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AHA! THE DEADLY SOCK SWORD CARRIED BY FRENCH FOOT SOLDIERS

2nd February 2009, 05:07 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The top is a physical description of the blade and handle, which apparently is in the shape of a gun handle (in the oriental style) The interesting bit is partly covered up by the scabbard. "Ce sabre a ete _____ Cavalerie Legere espagnole pendant la Campagne de 180 _____ par les ___ des chevaux de la Cavalerie Lourde francaise p_____ Cree par le general_____" "This sabre has been____ Spanish Light cavalry during the Campaign of 180_____by the ___ of the horses of the French Heavy Cavalry___ Created by the general ____" So all the important parts are lost It's an early 1800s sword though, unless the 0 is something else. Napoleon's invasion of Spain?? Maybe something like a zaghnal? And since it has something to do with horses, maybe it was used to trip cavalry. Napoleon had some Mameluke troops at the time didn't he? Emanuel

2nd February 2009, 05:21 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	- double post - please delete

2nd February 2009, 05:22 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Notice that from the angle of the handle and its shadow, the scikle part actually turns backwards...that or the handle is put on the wrong way.

2nd February 2009, 04:54 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,970	Bizarre is an understatement !!! I sit here staring at this thing after completely losing control after Vandoo's 'deadly foot sword' comment !!! LOL! and trying to see if the scabbard opens all the way down the back. Emanuel offers some rational thoughts, and trying to break through the humor I am completely baffled by this. Looking forward to some more clues, as Holmes always says to Watson, "...the games afoot!!" sorry, couldn't help it, Jim

2nd February 2009, 05:09 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,812	The work on the scabbard reminds me of Kaskra and Shotel? If it was used like a Mambele the handle would be the right way round?

2nd February 2009, 06:11 PM	#10
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Looks to me to be 10 Iron for use when it's really rough.

3rd February 2009, 03:07 AM	#11
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	That's just cool. Notice how the back of the scabbard is open. The guard fits over the mouth of the scabbard to hold the sword in. Steve

3rd February 2009, 05:57 AM	#12
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	blade is maybe shaped like a letter, calligraphy from some script? How odd...

3rd February 2009, 04:39 PM	#15
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	"jarrets" looks right Fernando, i couldn't make out the word. Mystery solved then about what it's for Now who the hell came up with it. David, the handle bulb is not facing the same way as the scickle part, that's why I said it might be on the wrong way. Emanuel

3rd February 2009, 05:04 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Emanuel, intuitively I believe the outer edge of the sickle would have been mainly used for the 'cut'. Bravo Fernando....it was there for all to see....if you can decipher Francais...my French is limited to "je voudrais une bière " I also found that a common tactic during the Madhist uprising involved tribesman hiding/playing dead during the initial Cavalry charge and melee.....and then trying to hamstring the horses on their return .....often using their Kaskara Regards David

3rd February 2009, 05:47 PM	#17
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	lol, that's a ShoKasKrisNabasPilan.

4th February 2009, 05:40 AM	#20
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Good grief! Actually, I think this "sword" came early in the evolution of the game of hockey. It's what they used before they invented hockey sticks. They had to switch to sticks because they were losing too many players to the noble sport of Spanish Sword Hockey. The Basques also preserved a version of Spanish Sword Hockey, except they called it Jai-alai...... Best, F

6th February 2009, 05:08 PM	#24
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	it seems difficult to swing! Would it have been used hanging low, trailing behind the rider in order to slice a passing horse? I could also see it cutting saddle straps that way.

7th February 2009, 02:48 AM	#25
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think so: it looks like a kind of scythe. Must have been swung widely, to slash through anything in its way: a Grim Reaper, if you like. If so, the rest ( kris-type "luks", blade with a fuller etc) was just for show. In the medieval Europe, scythe blades were mounted vertically on a long handle, making them a formidable peasant weapon.

9th February 2009, 05:18 PM	#26
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I had the chance to swing it a little today amazingly light and well ballanced, high quality. It is, however, somewhat awkward due to its weird "scorpion sting" shaped blade, and one should pay extra attention as it is sharp all the way around. The cage-like sub-guard holds the sword sheathed in place.

10th February 2009, 12:23 AM	#27
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Amazing sword... I have not too much problems with swords, knives and whatever injuries they inflict to soldiers/warriors in combat situation. But thinking of the horse that encounters this monsterous blade In London there is a memorial for animals saying "they had no choice". Food for thought

10th February 2009, 04:01 AM	#30
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It used to be claimed that the modern prohibition of the "below the belt" hit in saber fencing stems from the old ban on hitting the horse during cavalry fights. In fact, horse was always a desired target and this is indirectly witnessed by the elaborate horse armor in each and every military culture. All is fair in love and war.