Unusual wheel lock three barrel pistol

[fernando]

I wouldn't be surprised if our expert forumites know this thing inside out.
This pistol resembles the exemplar that belonged to Emperor Carlos V; is of the same type and dates back to the first half XVI century. Carlos V was of great support to gunmakers dreams.
This specimen shown here is of the wheel lock system and was used for shooting darts with the propulsion developed by gunpowder gases. Its three rotating barrels were alternated by a cog mechanism.
This picture was scanned from a 1978 thematic agenda.

Fernando

.

[Matchlock]

The "duck's foot" pistol in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris, ca. 1625-30 (the dating "ca. 1615" given by the museum is too early)

The others, from top:

Hofburg, Vienna, ca. 1560

T.W. Dexter scrapbooks, 1950's, ca. 1580

The Art Institute of Chicago, ca. 1610


Michael

[fernando]

Fascinating examples.
But dart shooters are more unusual, aren't they ?
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

Fascinating examples.
But dart shooters are more unusual, aren't they ?
Fernando

Exactly, Fernando. I will post one ot two more as soon as I have found them.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't be surprised if our expert forumites know this thing inside out.
This pistol resembles the exemplar that belonged to Emperor Carlos V; is of the same type and dates back to the first half XVI century. Carlos V was of great support to gunmakers dreams.
This specimen shown here is of the wheel lock system and was used for shooting darts with the propulsion developed by gunpowder gases. Its three rotating barrels were alternated by a cog mechanism.
This picture was scanned from a 1978 thematic agenda.

Fernando

.

Some more details of this arrow firing specimen. Unfortunately this is all I could find in my comprehensive library (ca. 3,000 books and catalogs on European A&A).

As Fernando has pointed out, it was made by Peter Peck, Munich, who furnished several firearms for the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (including this one), in ca. 1550 and etched and gilt by Ambrosius Gemlich, also Munich.

The wheel cover is etched with the Roman Imperial Eagle; a highly unusual feature is the dog with its swiveling reserve pyrites' head and jaws.

The sickle shaped dog spring running around the wheel cover is a characteristic technical feature of the 1st half to the mid 16th century.

The measurements are:

overall length: 41.5 cm
barrel length: 20.5 cm
caliber: 7.2 mm smoothbore
weight: 1.810 kg


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Thank you for the further info, Michael.
You had to have something about this specimen, either in your book library or in your mind files .
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Fernando,

Actually it was our member Zwielicht, who gave me the impulse to leaf thru literally everything I had.

The main problem with so little and barren information as we have is that the museums do not provide us with the knowledge that we are entitled of.

After all, these objects do not solely belong to the institutions that preserve them - they actually belong to all of us, and in my mind, they especially belong to the tiny but devoted community of students and scholars outside the museums who really are the ones that get going academic research the best they can!!!

I realize it's a very sad topic, and I can hear museum people holler, "we just don't have the time to do that, we are completely overworked ...". Well, I'have heard them bring forward that argument for more than 30 years, and believe me, friend, I'm fed up with it. I don't make half the money they do and I'm struggling for financial survival as all the jack I ever made is stuck in my collection, but I dedicated my life to A&A research more than half a century ago. And I God knows I have felt, and tried to comply with, the responsibility to support everybody showing serious interest ever since.

Anyway, I really feel like this is a topic our new member Armbrust might be willing to contribute to.

What I am trying to convey is that it is only working and researching together that any progress can be made by. Anybody walking alone on this hardly plowed field is bound to face isolation, frustration and standstill before long.

Anyways, best for tonight to everybody,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you for the further info, Michael.
You had to have something about this specimen, either in your book library or in your mind files .
Fernando

Oh yeah, Fernando,

I do have quite a bit in my mind files but what the community needs are photos, I'm afraid.

I know that you are way advanced with computers when compared to me, so could you please teach me how to print out the millions of images that are on my mind?

Best and good night to a sunny Portugal from a cold and rainy Bavaria,
Michael

[Zwielicht]

Thank you all for the information about this wonderful thing.

[RDGAC]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...I can hear museum people holler, "we just don't have the time to do that, we are completely overworked ...". Well, I'have heard them bring forward that argument for more than 30 years, and believe me, friend, I'm fed up with it.

Speaking as someone who does work in a museum, I have to say that, while I sympathise - and while there are certainly, if only down to the law of averages, museum staff who neither care nor wish to hear enquiries from researchers such as you, for reasons ranging from utter idleness to indifference to matters military or plain ignorance - the majority of museums, certainly in this country, are perennially understaffed, underfunded, and struggling to catch up with themselves in the face of ever more legislation, ever growing collections, and in this time particularly, ever increasing financial stringency.

Yes, you are entitled to make enquiries. Yes, we are obliged to help enquirers out, to the best of our ability, wherever possible. The fact is, however, that when one has to juggle taking care of collections, dealing with day-to-day administration, attending to visitors and special guests, the tedious but important business of accessioning and organising, organising supplies for conservation and sales purposes, and a dozen other things besides, quite often an enquiry from a researcher, while not falling upon deaf ears, will slip to the bottom of the queue of priorities. If one has a dozen other vital tasks to perform, rummaging through archives to answer an obscure question posed by a curious researcher is quite likely not foremost in one's mind - a regrettable fact of life, to be sure, but a fact nevertheless.

I should therefore appreciate it if you would not malign us all as some variety of idle delinquents, incapable of doing our jobs or uninterested in doing so. If we at our museum receive an historical enquiry, we try to answer it as promptly and accurately as our limited resources will permit. I joined this forum purely for the purpose of learning about our collections, with this very eventuality in mind - as well as the obvious, and even more vital, point of preserving the collection we have as best I can. You may well be frustrated by the often dilatory (or indeed stationary) response you receive from museum staff; museum staff, in many cases, are just as frustrated by having to juggle sixteen balls while an accountant waves an axe at their heads. Kindly avoid condemning us all in one swift stroke.

Edit: And by the way, what a piece! I'm surprised to see a wheel-lock still clinging to the archaic approach of propelling darts, however; could anyone enlighten me as to why that approach should still have been taken so late in the day, so to speak?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thank you, Fernando,

Actually it was our member Zwielicht, who gave me the impulse to leaf thru literally everything I had.

The main problem with so little and barren information as we have is that the museums do not provide us with the knowledge that we are entitled of.

After all, these objects do not solely belong to the institutions that preserve them - they actually belong to all of us, and in my mind, they especially belong to the tiny but devoted community of students and scholars outside the museums who really are the ones that get going academic research the best they can!!!

I realize it's a very sad topic, and I can hear museum people holler, "we just don't have the time to do that, we are completely overworked ...". Well, I'have heard them bring forward that argument for more than 30 years, and believe me, friend, I'm fed up with it. I don't make half the money they do and I'm struggling for financial survival as all the jack I ever made is stuck in my collection, but I dedicated my life to A&A research more than half a century ago. And I God knows I have felt, and tried to comply with, the responsibility to support everybody showing serious interest ever since.

Anyway, I really feel like this is a topic our new member Armbrust might be willing to contribute to.

What I am trying to convey is that it is only working and researching together that any progress can be made by. Anybody walking alone on this hardly plowed field is bound to face isolation, frustration and standstill before long.

Anyways, best for tonight to everybody,
Michael

Very well said Michael!!!!!
The bureaucracy and capitulation of many museums (and I would emphasize the word many....certainly not all to the financially charged pressures and ajendas of benefactors has often rendered them virtually absentee in the advance of knowledge in the study of historical arms. Even one of the largest museums here has candidly admitted that they prefer not to display weapons due to the 'political and moral complications'.
Many museums have actually pulled down and stored weapons displays in this same sense.

What they do not realize is that arms and armour are a dynamic icon of mankinds history that reflected more than thier admittedly grim purpose.
They also have forever imbued in them the essence of those who made them and used them in the monumental struggle for survival. These items have often survived as well, as they have been afforded respect and even reverence by those who knew them, and fascination and intrigue by those who have encountered and held them in later times.

Every weapon is patinated with history in some degree, and often in dimensions we cannot imagine....and we as historians are charged with finding ways for them to share thier secrets, and preserving thier history. ...lest we forget the valor with which they typically were used.
Naturally, there will be the instances where many weapons became associated with quite the contrary, but as always, they became simply instruments of negative forces,and remain historical curiosities in the spectrum of humanity.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Speaking as someone who does work in a museum, I have to say that, while I sympathise - and while there are certainly, if only down to the law of averages, museum staff who neither care nor wish to hear enquiries from researchers such as you, for reasons ranging from utter idleness to indifference to matters military or plain ignorance - the majority of museums, certainly in this country, are perennially understaffed, underfunded, and struggling to catch up with themselves in the face of ever more legislation, ever growing collections, and in this time particularly, ever increasing financial stringency.

Yes, you are entitled to make enquiries. Yes, we are obliged to help enquirers out, to the best of our ability, wherever possible. The fact is, however, that when one has to juggle taking care of collections, dealing with day-to-day administration, attending to visitors and special guests, the tedious but important business of accessioning and organising, organising supplies for conservation and sales purposes, and a dozen other things besides, quite often an enquiry from a researcher, while not falling upon deaf ears, will slip to the bottom of the queue of priorities. If one has a dozen other vital tasks to perform, rummaging through archives to answer an obscure question posed by a curious researcher is quite likely not foremost in one's mind - a regrettable fact of life, to be sure, but a fact nevertheless.

I should therefore appreciate it if you would not malign us all as some variety of idle delinquents, incapable of doing our jobs or uninterested in doing so. If we at our museum receive an historical enquiry, we try to answer it as promptly and accurately as our limited resources will permit. I joined this forum purely for the purpose of learning about our collections, with this very eventuality in mind - as well as the obvious, and even more vital, point of preserving the collection we have as best I can. You may well be frustrated by the often dilatory (or indeed stationary) response you receive from museum staff; museum staff, in many cases, are just as frustrated by having to juggle sixteen balls while an accountant waves an axe at their heads. Kindly avoid condemning us all in one swift stroke.

Edit: And by the way, what a piece! I'm surprised to see a wheel-lock still clinging to the archaic approach of propelling darts, however; could anyone enlighten me as to why that approach should still have been taken so late in the day, so to speak?

Hi RDGAC,
A well placed rebuttal, and I agree, as stated in my post.....not ALL museums are the same, nor are thier personnel, so your qualification of that is well noted. What Michael was expressing was a frustration in altogether too many instances where the bureaucratic dynamics that structure many museums have negated thier purpose in varying degree.

I would note here that your appearance here on our forum, and your postings have really presented important perspective in reevaluating how museum staff are often perceived, and it is wonderful to see the serious attention and pride you lend to your profession. I know that personally I am delighted in being able to talk with you directly with the fantastically provenanced items you have shared, and to see the genuine interest you show in accuracy in displaying them.

In defense of museums shouldering the financial and political burdens they carry, I think that the staff, as you note, overall do the best they can under the circumstances. However, I can attest to countless times through the decades I have researched, where my efforts to contact museum officials were shrugged off; and times I went to museums for a meeting and the individual simply did not show up, and worse no effort to notify me was ever extended. Many of us have tried to contact museum officials to advise of new information found to correct errors in holdings descriptions, only to be ignored dismissively.
In times where I have been involved in discussion with a particularly large museum, which I do not name here, my efforts to offer suggestions concerning a particular arms and armor form were almost curtly dismissed.
In other cases, similar dismissive comments were issued concerning the observations of myself and several others in the identification of an item, rather than instituting a productive review of the data.

So while I recall and note with considerable gratitude the many times through the years that individuals in and associated with many museums helped me; I cannot overlook the many cases mentioned where results were not so favorable. You are right, we cannot malign the industry or all involved indisciminately.......but we are concerned with the growing pallor of apathy toward weapons that seems to be permeating more generally themed museums.
Obviously the military basis in museums such as yours does not have this problem, so again, you are to be commended for your outstanding approach.
Thank you again for your postings!! and please keep them coming

All the very best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... I know that you are way advanced with computers compared to me, so could you please teach me how to print out the millions of images that are on my mind? ...

Easy thing. Just send me an email while you strongly project your mind in it and i will digitize the files with weapon memories .
But also i am totally convinced that, for such purpose, some kind of device, like a helmet connected to a bizarre box, was already idealized by Leonardo Da Vinci or Flavius Vegetius Renatus, drawn in some codice not yet unearthed. Only that, at the time, images were in black and white .

[fernando]

Hi RDGAC,

Originally Posted by RDGAC

... And by the way, what a piece! I'm surprised to see a wheel-lock still clinging to the archaic approach of propelling darts, however; could anyone enlighten me as to why that approach should still have been taken so late in the day, so to speak?

Looking at a text in post # 5, a certain explanation is given for such atypical situation, although one wonders if such is the real reason.
OTOH, we can read that Carlos V was the personification of gunsmith's dreams and, his love for fine arms was so great that he supported the development of a great school of gunsmiths in Spain.
Can we say that imagination and creativity may be applied in specimens not necessarily provided with the latest projectile invention. They become even more rare and exotic, worthfull of Emperors with exquisite tastes.
Fernando

.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Edit: And by the way, what a piece! I'm surprised to see a wheel-lock still clinging to the archaic approach of propelling darts, however; could anyone enlighten me as to why that approach should still have been taken so late in the day, so to speak?

Hi,

I have been guest in hundreds of museums and way too often not to be able to see your point and of course I accept it. Perhaps I should not have been as generalizing with my accusations as I was. All I am asking for is to see the peoples' point outside the museum bars, so thank you very much for making your stand and respecting mine.

As to dart/arrow firing firearms: this curious idea, after the early 14th century times when it was taken over from the crossbow/bow, has been renewed again at again at times from the 16th to the 19th century - most probably mainly for curiosity and the will to build something quite astounding.

Best,
Michael

[RDGAC]

Michael,

Perhaps I was a little over-eager in my defence of the trade; as Jim has noted, and as you have said, there are a sadly significant number of museums where the staff neither know, nor care to know about their military artefacts and their care. Whether through personal, political or financial motivations, such institutions are unfortunately apt to drag through the mud the name of their entire trade. One such example is a museum of which I know (which shall remain nameless) in which one of the most senior staff is simply not interested in matters military, nor in the artefacts in their care relating to the subject, with the result that their military collections suffer both from a lack of variety in their display, and from an absence of staff specialising in the subject area.

Regrettably, this trend will probably not abate as the ever-growing tide of political correctness slowly covers the land, and the idea that even mentioning weaponry, or its use, no matter what the cause, will breed a generation of mass-murdering lunatic warmongers. However, I'm proud to say we here suffer no such delusions - though we do still suffer the omnipresent problems of time and resources, as per usual. Fun stuff!

Best regards,
Meredydd Jones

[fernando]

May i claim my example to be in the top ten ? .
I know a military museum where, having a couple hundred percussion service pistols of the same model in their depot, they have choosen for public display an example with the wrong hammer .
Fernando