Moro blades galore: Any gem/s here?

[migueldiaz]

I've just gotten back from checking out the antique shops in the downtown (Ermita district) of the city of Manila.

I was looking for kampilans, and I've posted the pics of the five kampilans I'm choosing from, in this thread -- Five kampilans: which two to buy? Hope you can give me some guidance there.

As to what else are there in that popular antique store in Ermita, please see attached.

[migueldiaz]

Some more pics:

[migueldiaz]

More:

[migueldiaz]

Last set, still the same store:

[kino]

I would give up an "E-Ride ticket", to walk thru these shops ( if any of you ever used one of these tickets, you're old like me )

Miguel, again thanks for posting the photos.

[KuKulzA28]

I too wish I could walk into these shops... are there any honestly functional and strong blades there or are they all fragile antiques or tourist items? I dunno if it's worth trying to find someone who could help me acquire a barong from a good reputable shop...

[Battara]

Most of the stuff in the pictures are recently made. There are some that are perhaps older - mostly those that are Lumad or Igorot.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Most of the stuff in the pictures are recently made. There are some that are perhaps older - mostly those that are Lumad or Igorot.

I agree. While a walk through these shops might be interesting i think that in the end it might also prove frustrating as i pull one contemporary kris after another out of their nice shiny dress. But maybe the owner has something special under the counter.
KuKulz, you will find that many of the newer blades are quite "functional" and that many more of the older "antiques" are even more functional. In fact, i have rarely handled an antique kris that i would consider fragile. They are usually very well made blades that hold up well over the years.

[KuKulzA28]

so the concern is not so much that they might not work as intended but that they might not all be authentic antiques?

[David]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

so the concern is not so much that they might not work as intended but that they might not all be authentic antiques?

Pre-WW2 Moro swords in general tend to be much better quality weapons. That doesn't mean that a kris made in the 1980s, let's say, couldn't do a fair job cutting someone up. At least some of them. The big difference for me would be one of intention, though i do like to collect pieces that might have a solid sense of history as well. Let's face reality. The days of edged weapons warfare is pretty much past. A kris made in the late 19th century more than likely was made to kill someone. One made in the 1960's - present was more than likely made with the intention of hanging it on the wall as a bit of decoration. I generally prefer the weapon that was made to be a weapon.
But for many of us it is a matter of aesthetics. Placing an old kris next to one of these contemporary swords will probably show you this rather quickly. Both of them might be effective at killing, but the antique will most often be aesthetically more pleasing to the eye.

[KuKulzA28]

I see, thank you, I wanted to make sure I understood.

So say I want to get a legitimate Filipino blade that's aesthetically pleasing (and functional) and I live in the USA... how hard would it be to acquire one as seen in all these nice images? From what I've heard the shopping usually needs to be done on the spot, ya? If so I would not be surprised. There is one main Taiwanese aboriginal blade-maker that I know of and finding his contact info was hard enough. And I think the only time I could buy an aboriginal blade is the next time I go back to Taiwan to visit relatives (someday)... The Philippines would be a whole new world and quite an adventure not that I have that kind of money

[Rick]

Looks like you're posting from the Northeast US .
You haven't heard of eBay ?

[mross]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I see, thank you, I wanted to make sure I understood.

So say I want to get a legitimate Filipino blade that's aesthetically pleasing (and functional) and I live in the USA... how hard would it be to acquire one as seen in all these nice images? From what I've heard the shopping usually needs to be done on the spot, ya? If so I would not be surprised. There is one main Taiwanese aboriginal blade-maker that I know of and finding his contact info was hard enough. And I think the only time I could buy an aboriginal blade is the next time I go back to Taiwan to visit relatives (someday)... The Philippines would be a whole new world and quite an adventure not that I have that kind of money

Or, you could just check the swap forum for some leads.

[KuKulzA28]

oh I've heard of eBay... but the barongs on eBay tend to cost more than I have to spend... and I rarely ever seen any Taiwanese aboriginal knives... so I was lookin for alternatives... the aboriginal knives I can get in Taiwan next time I visit... but Filipino stuff... that's tougher

[Rick]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

oh I've heard of eBay... but the barongs on eBay tend to cost more than I have to spend... and I rarely ever seen any Taiwanese aboriginal knives... so I was lookin for alternatives... the aboriginal knives I can get in Taiwan next time I visit... but Filipino stuff... that's tougher

Thin wallet syndrome can be a deterrent, that's true .
Yes, good Taiwanese stuff is rare and expensive .
Possibly a side trip to Japan next time you go seeing as they occupied it for some years ...

[KuKulzA28]

yea, well I suspect that Taiwanese knives in Japan would be like Filipino knives in the USA... soldiers bring 'em home... there was a small amount of toursim blades made for foreign soldiers... doesn't mean they don't work, just not entirely traditional I guess....

However the aboriginal knifemaker, Nmah Yioudau, in Hualien County (NE side) still makes traditional blades and if my parents can't get them for me when they go back to visit my elderly grandparents, I'll get them myself when I go back to visit (been setting aside money from my budget for the plane tickets)... yay for Taiwanese heritage!

[David]

Well, it's hard to know what you consider to be too expensive. I see a whole lot of this contemporary Moro stuff go pretty cheaply on eBay, unless, of course, some bidder gets it in his head that he is bidding on an actual antique. You are right about GI bring backs, and because of that there are a lot of Moro weapons here in the USA. I bought my first kris in an antique mall not too far from you in Keene, NH. The seller didn't even know what it was and sold it pretty cheaply. These weapons also tend to show up at gun shows alot, also due to the US military connection. But if you are really interested in the contemporary kris and barong that are shown in most of the photos on this thread you can definitely find tons of them on eBay, probably cheaper than they are in these "antique" stores in the Philippines.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by David

The big difference for me would be one of intention, though i do like to collect pieces that might have a solid sense of history as well ... Placing an old kris next to one of these contemporary swords will probably show you this rather quickly. Both of them might be effective at killing, but the antique will most often be aesthetically more pleasing to the eye.

Hi David,

Amen!

Hello KuKulzA28,

To expound on David's point, if for instance the kris was antique, then wouldn't it be exciting to think that perhaps the said piece was one of those that figured in a famous Moroland battle, like the one described below?

Note where the kris was when Hassan died:

"Panglima Hassan (central figure in pic below), was killed in action against the Americans on March 4, 1904 at Bud Bagsak (Mount Bagsak).

"Hassan was the district commander of Luuk, Sulu, under the Sulu Sultanate. He was the first Tausug leader to defy the sultan’s order, that, in the interest of peace, the people should acknowledge American sovereignty. As an Imam (roughly translates to "prayer leader"), Panglima Hassan looked at the intrusive American 'infidels' as threats to Islam and Moro society . The Tausug Moros had allowed the Spaniards to build a garrison in Siasi and a church in Jolo by virtue of the 1878 peace pact, but that was it. After 300 years of almost continuous warfare, the Spanish had known better than to try and impose their authority over the fiercely independent Sulu people. But the Americans --- backed by utterly lethal modern weapons --- had no such reservations.

"In early November 1903, Hassan and about 3,000 to 4,000 warriors besieged the American garrison in Jolo. Armed only with krises (wavy-edged swords) and some old rifles, they bottled up the Americans for a week before being forced to withdraw. Following a battle, Hassan was captured while bathing near his camp at Lake Seit in late November 1903, but he soon escaped. He resumed the war in February 1904 when, together with Datu ('Chief') Laksamana and Datu Usap, they attacked the pro-American Sultan Kiram and his forces in the battle of Pampang. He lost in the battle, and was later killed with his two companions along the crater of Bud Bagsak. Hassan had 17 wounds in his body, but died game, crawling with his kris in his mouth toward the nearest wounded American soldier when the last bullet dispatched him."

To all,

Would it actually be possible to trace where in the US Hassan's kris is for instance? And the others'?

I cannot imagine the value of said krisses if provenance can be established!

[KuKulzA28]

I see... so as in the soul of the weapon, it's history... the blood and sweat on it, and that is what makes an antique amazing... like an elder who knows his/her shit and can do things that surprise you, but nevertheless, even though they've seen many days, they're old, and starting to lose their young vigor

[mross]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hi David,

To all,

Would it actually be possible to trace where in the US Hassan's kris is for instance? And the others'?

I cannot imagine the value of said krisses if provenance can be established!

It's possible but unlikey. You would need strong documented evidence to support a claim of provenance. Most seems to be the word of those who collected the weapon and brought it back. If you had a good clear photo of the weapon with the owner that would go along way to help in tracing it. One of the big problems with Moro weapons is they are not documented. But you are right if provenance can be established the value goes up.

[capt.smash]

Hi some time ago i braught two kris from the USA that claimed to be army bring backs ....they were both heavily coated in Cosmoline witch was a nightmare to remove but gave the "bringback" claim a little authenticity for me.
Of interest was that they both have small typed labels on the scabbards with individuals names"Hadji Ali.Tanbunan,Talayan" and"Jamal. Lambnyao,Tatayam"
I have always wondered if these could have been the names of the original owners[confiscated mabe?] but thaught it was to good to be true.
I will post a couple of pics asap when i find my damn camera cable.

[capt.smash]

Found the fellow.Note the silver bands on the top swords scabbard and silver fittings on the handle are replacements.The stirrups and handles are original just restored[the bottom swords stirrups are iron heat blued].Both handles came with remnants of woven thread rotted by the cosmoline.Both are ongoing projects for me.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by mross

It's possible but unlikey. You would need strong documented evidence to support a claim of provenance. Most seems to be the word of those who collected the weapon and brought it back. If you had a good clear photo of the weapon with the owner that would go along way to help in tracing it. One of the big problems with Moro weapons is they are not documented. But you are right if provenance can be established the value goes up.

Thanks for the comments