keris blade for comment.

[Rick]

Of an OD on acid .

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris!

OUCH!!! I took too much acid once back in the mid '70s, but that's another story.....

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take!

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take!

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

And in the case of my Balinese keris, I have left it alone (thank you forumites for your advise). If it ain't broke, don't break it anymore (especially in my case). On the other hand, nice job Smashy!

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by capt.smash

Holy smoke dude what happened there? Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?

Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster.

What someone will do (and end up ruining) for money.

On the other hand Captain, you are trying to "clean up" a blade, not age it. You are trying to bring it back to its old glory, not create a fake glory for it. This will not happen (what happened to that blade) with acids unless it is through ignorance or intent (in other words, they mean to do it) or both.

People are going to try this (restoring blades); I hate to see ignorance ruining what can be good blades. At least we can say, "start small and do the least possible" and offer a little guidance. As for intent... (I don't think I can voice my opinion on the forum).

[rasdan]

[QUOTE=BSMStar]Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster.
QUOTE]

Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."

[Rick]

[QUOTE=rasdan]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster.
QUOTE]

Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."

Wow Ras , I used to hang out with the co-author of that song Lenny Capizzi back in the bad old days around Harvard Square .

[rasdan]

Really Rick? It must had been one hell of a creepy time.


- The guests include wolfman, dracula and his son...

[Rick]

Good times Ras , good times .
I got to see and hang out with all the major players in the American folk and bluegrass scene of the mid-sixties .

/ but I digress .........

[capt.smash]

"Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."


LMAO clowns

[BSMStar]

“I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld an eerie sight,
For my keris in the bath started to smoke,
And then suddenly I began to choke...
(It began to melt…)
It was in acid, Smash,
(It began to melt…)
I just put on a splash,
(It began to melt…)
I pulled it out in a flash,
(It began to melt…)
Now I’ve lost all my cash!"

[rasdan]

Now, that is a good one!!! LOL

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

[Rick]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

Here's how it went down :

Tom :
" This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing. "

Nechesh :
" Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials. "

Tom:
" Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos. "

Nechesh :
" Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys , I certainly hope that you can possibly settle your differences via PM (personal message) I would be quite unhappy to see this thread get ugly .

If this is not an option for you then I would politely suggest that you both "explore the function of the 'Ignore' feature" to quote an esteemed moderator on this forum .

[BSMStar]

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

[nechesh]

Sorry Tom, i can assure you that there is absolutely NO bitterness or anger in my commentary, towards you or anyone else participating in this thread. Obviously i misunderstood your meaning, but if you re-read your statement again, perhaps you can see that the sentence structure you used could lend itself to my interpretation. I seriously had NO intent to twist your words for the sake of an argument. I had NO intent nor reason to attack you. I must also say that while i can accept the responsibilty for my own misunderstandings, i in no way am willing to consider myself representative of those who choose not to speak on this forum, nor do i take responsibility for any more than the words i actually wrote. You go on to suggest that:
"So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible."
I agree, so why would you be reading between my lines looking for anger and bitterness that does not exist? You have not threatened my paradigm with any great truths, i assure you; truth is relative anyway, both yours and mine, and there is no use getting one's panties in a twist about them.
I agree with Rick that if we need further clarification and understanding that we should take it to PM, but for the record i did feel the need to address your comments in a public forum.Once again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

[tom hyle]

Though (perhaps for reasons of brevity/editorial clarity) Rick's recap left me hanging on them, both BSMStar (who posted the skeleton pic) and Battara had also expressed concerns in the matter, as I have already said. As far as a simple misunderstanding goes, hey, no problem, and if the shoes even do fit, that doesn't mean you have to keep wearing them (that, and not to be insulting or smartassed, BTW, was why I said it may not be reasonable or possible to not read into people's words, for instance; I noticed I'd done what I didn't like, and couldn't see any way entirely not to do it; so I thought I'd at least point out the inconsistency.....); I don't think it's clear to....maybe anyone else.....that I actually, really was not addressing nechesh and his concerns particular per se as such, but the world at large and its concerns, and that seems like the only fact I haven't already made clear about the matter; seems clear to me. No offense taken, no offense intended; no harm, no foul. That's my last public word on that.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

Are you out there?

[Rick]

Hi BSM ,
My two cents worth of advice to you would be to treat and gently remove the rust . As for trying different and untraditional chemicals on a Jawa keris ; if I were you I would ascertain the age , quality , and value (not necessarily monetary) of such a blade before undertaking such a project . There are places that you can send the blade to have a traditional staining job done .

Smashy's piece is a Bali keris , smooth ; but your Jawa blade is likely rough . Please try to remember that these are cultural artifacts and one's responsibility as a collector is to "First do no harm" and as cultural artifacts they are due a certain amount of respect .

Now if you know for a fact that this blade of yours is a piece made to sell to the Western market and it is a piece of crap to boot then that may change things ; but PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

[tom hyle]

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

[capt.smash]

HI BSMStar show some pics of the blade or PM me some and we can discuss what to do

[BSMStar]

Hi All,

Let me assure you (and I guess I did not explain myself well ) that I would not attempt to etch and stain a "good" blade.

Rick, I fully agree with you. But let me ask a question... If the Javanese sell a keris in plastic dress (yes the sheath and hilt are plastic) to the "tourist" market, it is rusty and has no warangan stain left, do they consider it to be junk?

To me, the blade may be early 20c or late 19c, but I am not an expert.

I have no intention to grind, sand or polish the blade. I just want to remove the rust and restain it. As I have stated before, less is more... and I have etched my share of iron meteorites and I have not lost one yet The only question in my mind is the staining... I may end up with a totally black blade (but that would be an improvement over its current condition) of course I will stain it slowly and stop the process if I need to (etching I have done, staining is a new thing for me with a keris). I do not foresee damaging the blade in any way; the stain can be removed by a proper acid etch again. Then I would have a clean shiny blade that would need to be properly stained.

I will post pictures as my schedule allows.

FYI, LabanTayo has seen this keris.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi BSM ,
PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

Hi Rick,

Remember my thread on the possible Pajajaran keris? It's likely to be 600 to 800 years old. I'll share a towel with you.

I have no intention to allow this to happen to even a "junker" keris. If it is a keris worth saving, it is an object worth respecting... and to not allow that kind of damage to occur by my action. I am confident in what I can do... but the stain.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

Hi Tom,

This picture came out of Java. That is why I suspected it was done on purpose to "age" the blade. I believe it is a newly made blade of "low" quality... but it did not deserve to be treated like that (I am sure with the intent to push it off as an old blade if it worked ).

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Hi All,

Let me assure you (and I guess I did not explain myself well ) that I would not attempt to etch and stain a "good" blade.

Rick, I fully agree with you. But let me ask a question... If the Javanese sell a keris in plastic dress (yes the sheath and hilt are plastic) to the "tourist" market, it is rusty and has no warangan stain left, do they consider it to be junk?

To me, the blade may be early 20c or late 19c, but I am not an expert.

I have no intention to grind, sand or polish the blade. I just want to remove the rust and restain it. As I have stated before, less is more... and I have etched my share of iron meteorites and I have not lost one yet The only question in my mind is the staining... I may end up with a totally black blade (but that would be an improvement over its current condition) of course I will stain it slowly and stop the process if I need to (etching I have done, staining is a new thing for me with a keris). I do not foresee damaging the blade in any way; the stain can be removed by a proper acid etch again. Then I would have a clean shiny blade that would need to be properly stained.

I will post pictures as my schedule allows.

FYI, LabanTayo has seen this keris.

Hi BSMstar , from your description it sounds like a good candidate for an experiment in the adventures of staining .

I tend to over dramatize when it comes to altering an original piece .
I also tend to apply this warning as a stock answer just for the sake of consistency .

Please pardon any offense my earlier reply to you may have caused .
I am sure that you will do no harm .

Looking forward to watching the process as you report .

Rick

[tom hyle]

BTW, my sentence structure was a bit complex, but it was Rick's example I've seen as bad as and worse than many times; the other one, the one you could read through is a particularly badly-off example though; much worse than Rick's, IMHO The poor thing......

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi BSMstar , from your description it sounds like a good candidate for an experiment in the adventures of staining .

I tend to over dramatize when it comes to altering an original piece .
I also tend to apply this warning as a stock answer just for the sake of consistency .

Please pardon any offense my earlier reply to you may have caused .
I am sure that you will do no harm .

Looking forward to watching the process as you report .

Rick

Hi Rick!

It is very difficult to cause offense to me... and no pardon need, no offense taken. You are correct to remind and warn us of what we are about to under take (and not to do so lightly). I am just a student of life like everyone else... But, you have my permission to beat me in public if I ever do anything to a keris, the likes of what was done to the keris in the pictures we have shown!!! (My wife will gladly help... btw, she doesn't need a reason, she would just be glad to help anyway, just let her know when to show up).

I hope the only modification that occurs is the appearance of the keris being stained. Otherwise, visually there should be no other changes. I will start another thread when I gather all the materials and I am ready to start. I think LabanTayo wants to observe if he can swing it.

Captain... I am interested in your warangan or staining process, anything special to not have the nickel blacken? Extra steps?

[nechesh]

Hey Wayne, have you checked out this past thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
Wong Desa gives a recommendation of method that you might like to try. I have used it myself with fairly good results. My suggestion would be to make sure that all the water you use is distilled and the air temperature is also an important factor. I seem to have given some people the impression that i don't believe we should try ti improve keris, just preserve. This could not be further from the truth.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Hey Wayne, have you checked out this past thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
Wong Desa gives a recommendation of method that you might like to try. I have used it myself with fairly good results. My suggestion would be to make sure that all the water you use is distilled and the air temperature is also an important factor. I seem to have given some people the impression that i don't believe we should try ti improve keris, just preserve. This could not be further from the truth.

Hi nechesh,

I understand... this is an emotional subject, which most do not realize until it bits them... For me, I am just as passionate as anyone about preserving and not damaging the least significant of these fine treasures of Indonesia. Once lost, they are lost forever! Truly, I understand both sides of the issue, and would not bring to harm a fine keris (or even a not so fine keris).

Thanks for the link, although I have already come across it in my searching. Have you tried the Arsenic Trioxide approach? I would be surprised if it works unless there is an element of sulfur involved… or my chemistry my have to go back to the drawing board. One of my fellow Chemist ended up agreeing with my assumption of the Sulfur ion exchange to Iron (independently, btw, I have worked in an R&D Lab for over 23 years)… but if Arsenic Trioxide (if it is not a brand name, or chemically more to it) created a black stain, well… I’m more than a bit confused. But, that’s the fun of it.

[Rick]

Arsenic Trioxide plus liver of sulpher perhaps ?
Remember I am no chemist .