Tell me about Gatot

matahati · 10th June 2008, 09:47 PM

As I glance through my appartment window, I wonder if Gustave Eiffel had a keris in mind when he designed his tower.
I am not a keris collector per say: I only have one. Yet the subject has fascinated me since childhood and when, some twenty years ago, I started travelling extensivelly through central and east Java for my job, I decided it was time for me to learn more about these uncommon blades. As my interest for Java grew, so did my desire to acquire a keris. Yet, it occured to me there was no point in merely going to a store and buying a keris, however magnificient it might be - price not withstanding. Rather, I believed that if there was a keris out there for me, we would somehow find each other and that the match would come naturally when the time was right.
Twelve years ago, one morning in Situbondo, on the northern coast of East Java, the long awaited meeting took place. I will skip the strange set of circumstances which made that reunion possible, suffice it to say that the mas kawin was right and that we "wed" on that day. I called him Gatot, from the famous Gatot Kaca, because he travelled with me through the air to find his new home, an ocean and two continents away.
My knowledge about Gatot is pretty limited: I'm sure your learned crowd of passionate afficionados will help me to shed some light on who is Gatot.
As far as I can tell, it's a central Java keris lurus, probably from Solo - at least in terms of appearance, not withstanding the fact it might have been made elsewhere in the style of a Solo keris. The intricate nomenclature of the Dapur escapes me a bit but Carubuk Lenceng (Ensiklopedi keris p.123) appears to be a good match: the ganja seems too long for a Tilam Upih. It seemed strange to me that such a basic Dapur should be chosen for a keris which was to be addorned of such an intricate Pamor, but it might have been only to let the pattern of the blade stand on its own. A mlulah pamor, bulu ayam genre, but the exact pattern seems to evade description - please refer to the enclosed pics. Just last week, I stumbled on a picture http://www.indotalisman.com/Kelabangb2.JPG of Pamor called Kelabang Sayuta which looked pretty close but not quite. Any suggestion, on the name but more importantly, on how the motif is created? It looks as if layers of U curved mille feuille of iron and nickel were somehow stacked on both sides of a central core, with an inner layer of softer blackened iron which seems to have been etched to let the Pamor stand out in low relief. The wayviness of the pattern varies through the blade, creating another surface effect towards the tip of the keris.
For over a decade, I've been studying this keris and I don't feel like I know much. Can anyone tell me how it's made? I read on the forum about Pandi Keris from Madura, what is it exactly, and could it be such a keris? After all I found in in Situbondo, a 15mn drive to a small ferry to Madura island between Jangkar and Kalianget. I can't figure out its age: the tip looks pretty worn, but the chiseling around the Pejetan seem quite sharp. How about the Pamor Munggul controversy I read about a while ago in these pages. As I was reading the thread about it, I realized Gatot had something quite like that, something I thought looked like an eye, perfectly placed in the center of the blade, with a manner of orbit surrounding it. Is this what we're talking about ? What is it? And anyway, is it Timbul or random?
Enough say. I hope you will enjoy the attached pictures and that you can help me reaching new levels of understanding of my beloved Gatot.
I can't wait to hear from you. Matahati.

Rick · 11th June 2008, 12:36 AM

Welcome Matahati .

David · 11th June 2008, 04:32 AM

Yes, welcome Matahati. Interesting keris. I am afraid that i cannot tell you much about how it was made, but we do have a couple of skilled keris smiths here who could probably shed some light on that.
It does appear to me to me a fairly contemporary creation, maybe late 20th century.

ganjawulung · 11th June 2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matahati

... Just last week, I stumbled on a picture http://www.indotalisman.com/Kelabangb2.JPG of Pamor called Kelabang Sayuta which looked pretty close but not quite. Any suggestion, on the name but more importantly, on how the motif is created? It looks as if layers of U curved mille feuille of iron and nickel were somehow stacked on both sides of a central core, with an inner layer of softer blackened iron which seems to have been etched to let the Pamor stand out in low relief. The wayviness of the pattern varies through the blade, creating another surface effect towards the tip of the keris.
For over a decade, I've been studying this.

More than "Kelabang Sayuta" (a million of "kelabang", kind of insect with so many feet). I see also "satrio pinayungan" pamor near the tip of your blade... (a form of "ujung gunung" in the very top of the whole pamor)...

P.Abrera · 11th June 2008, 05:10 PM

Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris.

It's a form of feather pattern?

If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point.

It's also looks very aggressively etched for topography but not "washed" for contrast like some of the other keris I see. Perhaps the contast steel may not be nickle bearing.

I am still learning about the finer points of keris, but I can appreciate your keris from a bladesmith's point of view. It is a lot of work to create this.

Rick · 11th June 2008, 05:46 PM

Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched .

I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered .

lemmythesmith · 11th June 2008, 07:26 PM

Hi Matahati, welcome to the forum! The blade of your keris has been made by twisting two bars of pamor tightly, these bars are then forged square and welded together, split apart again down the length as P. Abera notes and a piece of pamor inserted between the two, then re-welded. The pattern "fades" a little at the point due to forging-this has slightly "undone" the twist. Looking at it I can't see any steel core-makes life easier as you only have to make one set of twisted bars!!

matahati · 11th June 2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched .

I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered .

Thank you for the warm welcome Rick. I love the keris you're showing. The hilt looks Madurese or north coast E. Java, am I wrong? Any chance to see a close up of the pamor? Regarding Pamor Miring, it seems you're right according to what I could make out from the Ensiklopedi: it's the other main type of Pamor, along with P Mlulah. I must say, I cannot understand how it is possible to make any kind of strong blade that way, not to mention the skill required for such control of the pattern. Could there be a technical trick?

matahati · 11th June 2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.Abrera

Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris.

It's a form of feather pattern?

If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point.

I think it falls in the general Pamor type Bulu Ayam - chicken feather, with styles like Ron Genduru, Ron Pakis etc.. I like the hot cut with smear effect idea. A skilled "smearer" might manage that. But it seems the layering is very even through the length of each layer: wouldn't a hammering compact the area by the cut, at the same time as it smears? Now, I'm thinking you're cutting the bar of 200 layers in the length from top to tip in order to get the right bend towards the tip along the cut. But then you have to shape the pattern of the layers so that the edges, which throughout the keris point forward, bend back towards the tip in order to improve penetration. How about: you do your 200 layer bar, but you use individual packs of 3 layers folded in 2 so you have a 6 layer sandwitch with U side. You stack say 40 of them one after the other and you work out the shape of the chevron. You make 2 of them and you assemble them on both sides of a 3 layer bar with the layers perpendicular to the sides. Is it possible to make that? Could it be strong? It seems an akward contruction

Rick · 12th June 2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matahati

Thank you for the warm welcome Rick. I love the keris you're showing. The hilt looks Madurese or north coast E. Java, am I wrong? Any chance to see a close up of the pamor? Regarding Pamor Miring, it seems you're right according to what I could make out from the Ensiklopedi: it's the other main type of Pamor, along with P Mlulah. I must say, I cannot understand how it is possible to make any kind of strong blade that way, not to mention the skill required for such control of the pattern. Could there be a technical trick?

A skilled smith can weld this on a core .

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2008, 02:18 AM

Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material.

Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.

David · 12th June 2008, 05:36 AM

Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys...

Rick · 12th June 2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys...

Compared to who's ?

"The fulfillment of a keris is also the function to fill our soul with."
Empu Kumis

David · 12th June 2008, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Compared to who's ?

Why, compared to YOU, of course...

matahati · 12th June 2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A skilled smith can weld this on a core .

Ouh Lala! Très joli. It's absolutely gorgeous! But what do you mean "to weld on a core"?

matahati · 12th June 2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material.

Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.

Thanks for the info, sounds like a must get book.
I pondered for some time on the explanation you gave of the way to produce a pattern similar to the picture I posted through a twisting. I could not make it out. A well illustrated book will probably help.

Rick · 13th June 2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matahati

Ouh Lala! Très joli. It's absolutely gorgeous! But what do you mean "to weld on a core"?

Whereas your keris is made from soild pamor; the example I have shown has a plain core with the pamor applied to each side .

10th June 2008, 09:47 PM	#1
matahati Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paris, France Posts: 5	Tell me about Gatot As I glance through my appartment window, I wonder if Gustave Eiffel had a keris in mind when he designed his tower. I am not a keris collector per say: I only have one. Yet the subject has fascinated me since childhood and when, some twenty years ago, I started travelling extensivelly through central and east Java for my job, I decided it was time for me to learn more about these uncommon blades. As my interest for Java grew, so did my desire to acquire a keris. Yet, it occured to me there was no point in merely going to a store and buying a keris, however magnificient it might be - price not withstanding. Rather, I believed that if there was a keris out there for me, we would somehow find each other and that the match would come naturally when the time was right. Twelve years ago, one morning in Situbondo, on the northern coast of East Java, the long awaited meeting took place. I will skip the strange set of circumstances which made that reunion possible, suffice it to say that the mas kawin was right and that we "wed" on that day. I called him Gatot, from the famous Gatot Kaca, because he travelled with me through the air to find his new home, an ocean and two continents away. My knowledge about Gatot is pretty limited: I'm sure your learned crowd of passionate afficionados will help me to shed some light on who is Gatot. As far as I can tell, it's a central Java keris lurus, probably from Solo - at least in terms of appearance, not withstanding the fact it might have been made elsewhere in the style of a Solo keris. The intricate nomenclature of the Dapur escapes me a bit but Carubuk Lenceng (Ensiklopedi keris p.123) appears to be a good match: the ganja seems too long for a Tilam Upih. It seemed strange to me that such a basic Dapur should be chosen for a keris which was to be addorned of such an intricate Pamor, but it might have been only to let the pattern of the blade stand on its own. A mlulah pamor, bulu ayam genre, but the exact pattern seems to evade description - please refer to the enclosed pics. Just last week, I stumbled on a picture http://www.indotalisman.com/Kelabangb2.JPG of Pamor called Kelabang Sayuta which looked pretty close but not quite. Any suggestion, on the name but more importantly, on how the motif is created? It looks as if layers of U curved mille feuille of iron and nickel were somehow stacked on both sides of a central core, with an inner layer of softer blackened iron which seems to have been etched to let the Pamor stand out in low relief. The wayviness of the pattern varies through the blade, creating another surface effect towards the tip of the keris. For over a decade, I've been studying this keris and I don't feel like I know much. Can anyone tell me how it's made? I read on the forum about Pandi Keris from Madura, what is it exactly, and could it be such a keris? After all I found in in Situbondo, a 15mn drive to a small ferry to Madura island between Jangkar and Kalianget. I can't figure out its age: the tip looks pretty worn, but the chiseling around the Pejetan seem quite sharp. How about the Pamor Munggul controversy I read about a while ago in these pages. As I was reading the thread about it, I realized Gatot had something quite like that, something I thought looked like an eye, perfectly placed in the center of the blade, with a manner of orbit surrounding it. Is this what we're talking about ? What is it? And anyway, is it Timbul or random? Enough say. I hope you will enjoy the attached pictures and that you can help me reaching new levels of understanding of my beloved Gatot. I can't wait to hear from you. Matahati. Attached Images

11th June 2008, 05:46 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched . I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered . Attached Images

12th June 2008, 05:36 AM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys... Last edited by Rick; 12th June 2008 at 05:16 PM. Reason: sorry D. , hit edit instead of reply; let's try again !

11th June 2008, 12:36 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Welcome Matahati .

11th June 2008, 04:32 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Yes, welcome Matahati. Interesting keris. I am afraid that i cannot tell you much about how it was made, but we do have a couple of skilled keris smiths here who could probably shed some light on that. It does appear to me to me a fairly contemporary creation, maybe late 20th century.

11th June 2008, 05:10 PM	#5
P.Abrera Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20	Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris. It's a form of feather pattern? If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point. It's also looks very aggressively etched for topography but not "washed" for contrast like some of the other keris I see. Perhaps the contast steel may not be nickle bearing. I am still learning about the finer points of keris, but I can appreciate your keris from a bladesmith's point of view. It is a lot of work to create this.

11th June 2008, 07:26 PM	#7
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Matahati, welcome to the forum! The blade of your keris has been made by twisting two bars of pamor tightly, these bars are then forged square and welded together, split apart again down the length as P. Abera notes and a piece of pamor inserted between the two, then re-welded. The pattern "fades" a little at the point due to forging-this has slightly "undone" the twist. Looking at it I can't see any steel core-makes life easier as you only have to make one set of twisted bars!!

12th June 2008, 02:18 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material. Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.