Unknown Short Sword Or Big Knife

[Robert]

I can't remember if I have ever posted this item before or not so if I have please remove this. This short sword or knife shows some age but I cannot place when or where it is from. The blade has a 4-1/2" unsharpened false edge. The guard is either red brass or copper. The grip is horn and the fittings are brass. The tang goes all the way through the hilt and is riveted over. The scabbard is leather but missing the drag and the band at the throat with the retaining loop but still has the original frog. Any help in identifying where this is from and of what age it is will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help offered.

Blade length 13-1/8"
Blade at widest 1-3/8"
Blade at thickest 3/16"
Hilt length 4-3/4"

Robert

[Chris Evans]

Hi Robert,

Call me suspicious, but there is something not quite right with this knife. The condition and luster of the fittings is inconsistent with that of the blade and sheath.

Other than this I cannot help. Have you tried consulting Bernard Levine?

Cheers
Chris

[Robert]

Hi Chris,
I'm afraid that the way the fittings look is my fault. The fitting were quite dirty and starting to corrode when I found this knife so I cleaned them enough to remove most of the corrosion then waxed them. They are not as shinny as they look. Some of the shine is probably due to a combination of the wax and the flash on the camera when I took the pictures. If you look at the last picture you can still see some of the oxidation on the band going around the grip. I was trying not to over clean them. If I don't get any response here I will contact Mr Levine for his opinion. Thank you for input on this item.

[katana]

Hi Robert
it does look similar to a European hunting hanger .... but there is 'something' about it that seems SEA. Perhaps Dutch ?

[Battara]

It is not Filipino. I was originally thinking Mexican, high ranking officer.

[Robert]

Hi Katana,
This is another one of the items that I have that I just have no idea on. It does have a SEA look to it but from where or when I have no clue. The scabbard is very similar in style and design to one on a tabak that I have. As far as Dutch so far I have not been able to find anything resembling this piece. Thank you your help and interest.

Robert

[Robert]

Hi Jose,
We must have been posting at the same time. Mexico, I'll start looking in that direction. Do you have any idea of age for this item? Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

[Chris Evans]

Hi Battara,

Originally Posted by Battara

It is not Filipino. I was originally thinking Mexican, high ranking officer.

If Mexican, where would the local cutlers have obtained such a hefty piece of horn? I mean it looks more like that of water buffalo or similar than cattle. Also, how did they make the pommel and separator - Would they have had the means to? Of course, all of this could have been taken from another weapon. Or else, the complete piece was made in Europe. Just my thoughts.

Cheers
Chris

[Battara]

Horn? Thank you Chris - I missed that one. In that case, it may be Filipino after all but in more Spanish style.

Although - there was a lot of trade between Mexico and the Philippines for centuries....

[Robert]

A few more pictures. I hope these help.

[trenchwarfare]

I sold a very similar knife on ebay a while back. Is this it? Frog looks different. If same, was an ebay purchase. Seller said it was carried by an Italian officer, in Ethiopia, pre WWI?

[Robert]

Trenchwarfare, Thank you for responding to this post and for the information. To be honest I really can't remember exactly how long that I have had this knife but I believe that I bought it about 2 years (or maybe a little longer) ago on ebay. The frog is the one that came with it when I bought it. Was the grip on the one that you had made of water buffalo horn? Thanks again.


Robert

[trenchwarfare]

Robert. I'm pretty sure this is the same knife. Sold it a couple of years ago. I've sold hundreds of knives on ebay, but remember everyone. Many were, and are hard to part with. I have a limited budget, so can't keep 'em all. Got to stay focused. But, when you love cold steel, it's hard to do. Looks like you repaired the scabbard, near the tip? The one I had was broken there. Can't tell in the pictures, but the knife I had was discolored at the point, from being in a fire. Yes, it had a Horn handle. The reason I wanted to believe the Italian connection, was the European style frog, and the "Romanesque" brass handle spacer. Seems that the frog was more tan colored? Whatever it is, it's a very nice piece. Good luck with a positive ID. M.P.

[Robert]

Yes I did repair the scabbard tip after it arrived to keep it from breaking off completely. The difference in color on the frog is due to the mink oil that I use to help preserve the leather on the scabbards of all the items that I have. The discoloration on the tip of the blade came disappeared when I cleaned off the small amount of rust that was starting to accumulate there. I know how you feel, I find it very hard to let go of any of my edged friends. Thank you again for your interest and help on this.

Robert

[Gonzalo G]

Robert, in my opinion this is an argenitienan facón, but I need to say that there are some unusual features related with this piece. The blade seems older than the hilt, which was a common constructive feature in the facones, as they were usually made with recycled blades. The general form of the hilt and the work there also seems to be argentinean. Is it not related to the mexican weapons at all, and I don´t believe it could be phillipine. The horn probably is black horn from argentinean cattle. The ring separating the two portions of horn could be chased or repousee, a common practice on argentinean metal work, and the acanthus leaves are also a comon decorative motifs in this country. The form of the pommel and the construction of the rivet also fits in the argentinean style.

Neverthless, the blade is not the most common to find on the facones, but not excluded form their style, as thet have single edged blades with or withoul a false edge, not necesarily form a bayonet. It could be made from the point of a broken sword The guard and the scabard are more strange, as cooper was not recommended among argentineans to make this pieces. It could be a latter fit, though a particular facón maker could decide to use this material not having another one at hand. The form of the guard is found in the classic facones, but it could be also a copy. The scabbar does resemble a military one, and there is a possibility it is not the original one fo this blade, but from a blade with a symetric spear point, but I can´t be sure form the pictures. What most calls my attention, is the fact that the facon was not used on a scabbard suspended form the belt, but crossed under it on the back side. So, the scabbard loop seems strange and out of place, and this makes me feel that, or the scabbard was added latter and keeped as it came, or that this weapon can be used by another type of person different from the criollo cowboy, or even that the knife could have another origin, though it fit in the facón type without problem.

Also, brass fitting are not as common as silver ones, but it can be a solution for a working facón made for a modest person with some income. The silver mounted facones are the top of the line, but do not reflect the general production of this weapons, only a portion of it. It´s difficul to establish the age of this piece, as the hilt style is very classic and it can be made form the 19th Century and forward, but I´have the feeling that it could be made after or around 1900´s, or maybe earlier. Sadly, we find more usually silver mounted facones than from the other kind of mounts, because the silver mounted were considered more worthy to be photographed, more valuable in terms of money, more attractive and, yes, more flashy. But in historic and museographic terms, I think the more modest facones are most representative of their kind and of their intended use in the daily life of the criollo cowboy. The silver mounted ones are more ceremonial items and a symbol of status among landowners to this date.

A very interesting piece. You should wiritte to Abel Domenech and conffirm the origin of this piece, and from the other "could be" argentinean pieces you have.

Domenech, Abel

dagasdeplata@yahoo.com

He´s a very open and kind person. I don´t think he´s is going to be bothered by your petition. On the contrary, maybe he could find very interesting your pieces, as he collects them.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Rick]

For what it's worth ; the blade profile reminds me a bit of a Chinese Bowie .