Kampilan Question

Queequeg · 9th July 2007, 09:19 PM

Hello. I have a newbie question about kampilans

Though I've had the pleasure of handling ginuntings, pinutes, keris, and talibons, my experience with kampilans has been nonexistent.

Which is the sharp side on a kampilan? Is it the side with the barb/hook, or the opposite side? Or are they double-edged. I thought I could tell by the orientation of the "crocodile jaws" handle, but I've seen the "jaws" facing both sides of the blades in kampilan pictures.

Also, does anyone know if it's true that small brass discs embedded in the blade are representative of how many enemies that enemy has killed?

Thanks,
Queequeg

Bill M · 9th July 2007, 11:03 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4877

The bottom of the blade in my picture is the sharp edge.

The number of brass dots has nothing to do with how many men killed as far as I know.

I have never seen a double edged Kampilan

Rick · 10th July 2007, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4877

The bottom of the blade in my picture is the sharp edge.

The number of brass dots has nothing to do with how many men killed as far as I know.

I have never seen a double edged Kampilan

True possibly;, but I have one example where the distal taper is so severe, and combined with the design features on the spine would indeed facilitate an evil ripping back handed tip cut .

That's what I love about these swords; among all the Moro weapons they have the finest temper and distal taper.

Queequeg · 10th July 2007, 12:11 PM

Bill,

Thanks for the answer. I have a couple of further questions.

Are the "clip-point" or the spike sharpened, too?

Is the spike decorative, or does it give some tactical advantage?

Also, what initially confused me about which side was sharp was the direction of the handle. Most kampilan seem to have the "jaws" of the handle flared toward the sharp edge, which makes sense to me ergonomically. Yours has the jaws facing the spine, which seems (no offense) backward to me.

I guess it doesn't make any difference which way the jaws are facing?

Bill M · 10th July 2007, 12:35 PM

All my kampilan (14) have the sharp edge facing the same way. I would imagine that this is the usual direction, though, I guess there could be variations.

Perhaps you could tell us about the handling of ginuntings and pinutes. I guess you are FMA?

Queequeg · 10th July 2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

All my kampilan (14) have the sharp edge facing the same way. I would imagine that this is the usual direction, though, I guess there could be variations.

Perhaps you could tell us about the handling of ginuntings and pinutes. I guess you are FMA?

Yes. I practice an art called Pekiti-Tirsia. I've had the pleasure of training with Grandmaster Leo Gaje Jr. several times at various seminars to which my group in Detroit travels. We've hosted him several times as well.

What would you like to know about ginuntings? To start, I'll say that they're a wonderful blade.

kai · 10th July 2007, 02:17 PM

Hello Queequeg,

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:

Are the "clip-point" or the spike sharpened, too?

No, usually not. As Rick points out, the tip of the blade (wether with spike or not) is often/usually? thin enough to be used in a ripping "backward" motion.

Quote:

Is the spike decorative, or does it give some tactical advantage?

I'd venture to guess that any tactical advantage isn't that big: A lot of Kampilans were used without a spike - some had there spikes broken off long ago and many kampilan blades never had a spike to begin with. Heck, with a blade of this size, even a passing hit with an unsharped "edge" hurts!

I've heard respected Filipinos explaining that the spike can be used to distract an opponent (i.e. asking for an opening) but none of those I remember were Moro themselves. It would be nice if someone well versed in a Moro MA style were to confirm this.

Quote:

Also, what initially confused me about which side was sharp was the direction of the handle. Most kampilan seem to have the "jaws" of the handle flared toward the sharp edge, which makes sense to me ergonomically. Yours has the jaws facing the spine, which seems (no offense) backward to me.

Nah, the flaring part of the hilt is at the top (like in Bill's example) - it's not a grip retention aid like in a kakatua pommel. I think I remember seeing a few genuine kampilan blades with hilts turned around but I'd strongly suspect these were trophies of foreign soldiers which got dabbled with...

OTOH, I've often seen kampilans mounted on a wall with the edge upside down. This always striked me as weird - maybe the sharp edge kept cutting any attachment string?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 10th July 2007, 03:28 PM

These, are of course slashing swords and the hilts tend to be oriented at a slight upward angle to the edge.
What I have observed from cutting with a kampilan; the end third of the blade is what really gets the business done.

There are a couple of great older threads on this sword which can be found through the search function.

kai · 10th July 2007, 09:16 PM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

What I have observed from cutting with a kampilan; the end third of the blade is what really gets the business done.

Well, isn't that true for just about any sword?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 10th July 2007, 09:29 PM

potapych · 13th July 2007, 03:44 AM

Hi all. As a matter of possible interest, I have a Kampilan that does have about a third of the "back" side sharpened. The finish and profile of the point, coupled with the facts that it is an older blade and fully an inch longer than my other spike and clip point variations, leads to the conclusion that it is in it's original form.

kai · 13th July 2007, 08:00 AM

That seems to be an old one - I'd have no qualms to place it into 19th c.

What's the blade length?

Could you please post a close-up of the blade tip?

Regards,
Kai

potapych · 13th July 2007, 10:09 AM

Hi Kai,

Hope this helps, it's the best I could do being that it's night time here. The reverse taper is about equivalent to the front edge taper, (a little over 1/4 the blade width) and runs for about 8 1/2" (or 21.6 cm) back from the tip. It is as sharp as the front (very) and there is no indication it has ever been any different.The blade measures 29 5/8" (or 75.75 cm). I'll try for a daylight shot later.

It's scabbard also conforms to the blade profile but that in itself is not so compelling as they were often, (as I'm sure you know), discarded in the heat of things and later replaced.

Best,

Ray

Battara · 13th July 2007, 10:18 PM

And you are sure that the curved back edge is not a later sharpening? This is very unusual. In every single kampilan (and traditionally) the straight part is what is sharpened.

kai · 13th July 2007, 10:55 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

And you are sure that the curved back edge is not a later sharpening?

Maybe an acid etch of the blade may give additional clues?

Quote:

This is very unusual. In every single kampilan (and traditionally) the straight part is what is sharpened.

The straight edge of this piece is fully sharpened if I understand correctly. This tip profile is the most likely to be also sharpened: Several members of the klewang family of blades (from which the kampilan obviously originates) do exhibit a sharpened back edge along the tip. It would be nice to hear of other examples if any were known!

Regards,
Kai

potapych · 14th July 2007, 07:30 AM

Hi,

Please excuse me if I didn't explain well enough; the straight "front" edge is entirely sharpened, as is usual and the first third of the "back" (curved edge) is sharpened exactly equally.

Anyway, I tried to get better pictures of the profiles today, the last one depicts the taper of the "back" side, from it's full width to the point of where it is truly sharpened. (Please excuse the greenish hue, it's a from Japanese Maple that's always trying to get into the picture ;-)

Ray

potapych · 14th July 2007, 08:07 AM

Hi Jose,

No, with my admittedly limited experience I can't be absolutely, positively certain but even if it the "back" third portion were to have been sharpened in that manner sometime after it's manufacture; it would appear it was done very long ago and indigenously, which would still make it a valid sub-type?

Best,

Ray

9th July 2007, 09:19 PM	#1
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Kampilan Question Hello. I have a newbie question about kampilans Though I've had the pleasure of handling ginuntings, pinutes, keris, and talibons, my experience with kampilans has been nonexistent. Which is the sharp side on a kampilan? Is it the side with the barb/hook, or the opposite side? Or are they double-edged. I thought I could tell by the orientation of the "crocodile jaws" handle, but I've seen the "jaws" facing both sides of the blades in kampilan pictures. Also, does anyone know if it's true that small brass discs embedded in the blade are representative of how many enemies that enemy has killed? Thanks, Queequeg

13th July 2007, 03:44 AM	#11
potapych Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Left Coast, USA Posts: 14	Hi all. As a matter of possible interest, I have a Kampilan that does have about a third of the "back" side sharpened. The finish and profile of the point, coupled with the facts that it is an older blade and fully an inch longer than my other spike and clip point variations, leads to the conclusion that it is in it's original form. Attached Images Last edited by potapych; 13th July 2007 at 04:05 AM.

13th July 2007, 10:09 AM	#13
potapych Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Left Coast, USA Posts: 14	Hi Kai, Hope this helps, it's the best I could do being that it's night time here. The reverse taper is about equivalent to the front edge taper, (a little over 1/4 the blade width) and runs for about 8 1/2" (or 21.6 cm) back from the tip. It is as sharp as the front (very) and there is no indication it has ever been any different.The blade measures 29 5/8" (or 75.75 cm). I'll try for a daylight shot later. It's scabbard also conforms to the blade profile but that in itself is not so compelling as they were often, (as I'm sure you know), discarded in the heat of things and later replaced. Best, Ray Attached Images Last edited by potapych; 13th July 2007 at 10:26 AM.

14th July 2007, 07:30 AM	#16
potapych Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Left Coast, USA Posts: 14	Hi, Please excuse me if I didn't explain well enough; the straight "front" edge is entirely sharpened, as is usual and the first third of the "back" (curved edge) is sharpened exactly equally. Anyway, I tried to get better pictures of the profiles today, the last one depicts the taper of the "back" side, from it's full width to the point of where it is truly sharpened. (Please excuse the greenish hue, it's a from Japanese Maple that's always trying to get into the picture ;-) Ray Attached Images

9th July 2007, 11:03 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4877 The bottom of the blade in my picture is the sharp edge. The number of brass dots has nothing to do with how many men killed as far as I know. I have never seen a double edged Kampilan

10th July 2007, 12:11 PM	#4
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Bill, Thanks for the answer. I have a couple of further questions. Are the "clip-point" or the spike sharpened, too? Is the spike decorative, or does it give some tactical advantage? Also, what initially confused me about which side was sharp was the direction of the handle. Most kampilan seem to have the "jaws" of the handle flared toward the sharp edge, which makes sense to me ergonomically. Yours has the jaws facing the spine, which seems (no offense) backward to me. I guess it doesn't make any difference which way the jaws are facing?

10th July 2007, 12:35 PM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	All my kampilan (14) have the sharp edge facing the same way. I would imagine that this is the usual direction, though, I guess there could be variations. Perhaps you could tell us about the handling of ginuntings and pinutes. I guess you are FMA?

10th July 2007, 03:28 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301	These, are of course slashing swords and the hilts tend to be oriented at a slight upward angle to the edge. What I have observed from cutting with a kampilan; the end third of the blade is what really gets the business done. There are a couple of great older threads on this sword which can be found through the search function.

10th July 2007, 09:29 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301

13th July 2007, 08:00 AM	#12
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	That seems to be an old one - I'd have no qualms to place it into 19th c. What's the blade length? Could you please post a close-up of the blade tip? Regards, Kai

13th July 2007, 10:18 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,240	And you are sure that the curved back edge is not a later sharpening? This is very unusual. In every single kampilan (and traditionally) the straight part is what is sharpened.

14th July 2007, 08:07 AM	#17
potapych Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Left Coast, USA Posts: 14	Hi Jose, No, with my admittedly limited experience I can't be absolutely, positively certain but even if it the "back" third portion were to have been sharpened in that manner sometime after it's manufacture; it would appear it was done very long ago and indigenously, which would still make it a valid sub-type? Best, Ray