Keris and Hilt for Comment - Page 2

ganjawulung · 27th June 2007, 05:38 AM

... and not the same kind with this "chepot" (demi-god in wayang, Mas Bram knows it better) hilt. Just for comparison of the "bending" hilt...

Ganjawulung

PenangsangII · 27th June 2007, 08:13 AM

Salam Pak Ganja,

From your vast experience, where does this wayang hilt come from?

I thought I saw almost identical to this one i.e. demi god (rasaksa?) bowing before a king that was on sale here in KL. The seller told me it was Maduran Bajing or Bajang. If my Javanese is correct, Bajing means squirrel, and bajang is one of the feared rasaksa....

From your composition of the hilt & ferrule, I can also adduce (wild guess) that your complete hilt is of Sumbawa's origin

.

ganjawulung · 27th June 2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

From your vast experience, where does this wayang hilt come from?

From your composition of the hilt & ferrule, I can also adduce (wild guess) that your complete hilt is of Sumbawa's origin

.

Dear Penangsang,
Really not vast experience. Even on "luar Jawa" (outside Java island) kerises, now I'm learning from you. Regarding such unusual hilt like this, all I can do is just guessing.

I guess, this "wayang" hilt is from Java -- either West Java, or Central Java. And probably not Madura. That is regarding to the figure of "chepot" (or Bagong the youngest of four Pandawa clown-gods or demi-gods) which is so popular in most "wayang golek" (?) show in West Java. The "dhalang", the puppeteer, often speaks via Chepot figure. But in Central Java, I think, it is more Semar (the father of the clown-gods) who takes more role for the speaker. (Please correct me, Mas Bram, If you don't mind on).

The composition of hilt and ferrule, maybe not proper. I just waiting for the comments of you all. Really I have no idea...

Ganjawulung

Marcokeris · 27th June 2007, 01:36 PM

Dear Ganja
a rare nice hit!
I think it is from Jawa, but .... maybe also from Sumbawa....and the patterns coud be also from Sumatra

.
From a photo without selut or from a photo of the face alone maybe is possible to have better clues.

David · 27th June 2007, 02:32 PM

though it is not necessarily an indicator of origin the 'selut" looks very Sumatran to me.

Very nice hilt BTW.

Alam Shah · 27th June 2007, 02:36 PM

Hi Ganja, a unique hilt.

Cepot (Bagong), with a squat body and has very big eyes.
The ferrule (selut) is of South Sumatran type, Palembang comes to mind, imho.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2007, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I think it is from Jawa, but .... maybe also from Sumbawa....and the patterns coud be also from Sumatra

.
From a photo without selut or from a photo of the face alone maybe is possible to have better clues.

Dear Marco,
These are the fotos of "the hunchback of Java" you want to see...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 28th June 2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

though it is not necessarily an indicator of origin the 'selut" looks very Sumatran to me.

Very nice hilt BTW.

Thanks David, for the info. Sometimes I am confused with such variety of 'selut'. I have some other types of selut that still confusing me. Someday I'll post them here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Ganja, a unique hilt.

Cepot (Bagong), with a squat body and has very big eyes.
The ferrule (selut) is of South Sumatran type, Palembang comes to mind, imho.

I hope I was not mistaken to guess that the hilt I showed you is really a "semar hilt", and not "chepot hilt". Semar has a "tuft" in his head, and only one tooth in the lower jaw... Please correct me if I'm wrong..

These pictures below is another hilt, probably a double headed creature of wild boar and garuda....

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 28th June 2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I hope I was not mistaken to guess that the hilt I showed you is really a "semar hilt", and not "chepot hilt". Semar has a "tuft" in his head, and only one tooth in the lower jaw... Please correct me if I'm wrong..

These pictures below is another hilt, probably a double headed creature of wild boar and garuda....

Ganja, you seems to have quite a lot of hilts. I'm not familiar with these forms. Since you mentioned it's a cepot (Bagong), I assume it is.

But after looking closer, it's more of a Semar than a Cepot.

Let's recap... Semar is the care-giver of Pandawa. His name is also Hyang Ismaya. Even though his appearance is ugly, he has supernatural abilities...

Bagong (Cepot) means shadow of Semar. When Semar was sent to the earth, the gods stated that his shadow became his friend. Suddenly, his shadow was transformed to be Bagong. Bagong has unique personality: he is assertive and like to pretend to be stupid. He is also a funny character.

The other hilt's creature, hmmm... I'm not sure what it is, but the back is a garuda mungkur. Thanks for sharing.

Punakawan is a unique type of character in Indonesian wayang (shadow) theatre. They generally represent the commoners. The characters of Punakawan indicate various roles, such as the warrior advisors, the entertainers, social critics, and clowns, a further source of truth and wisdom. In Javanese wayang, the punakawan characters consist of Semar, Bagong, Gareng and Petruk. For our reference.

Marcokeris · 28th June 2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Marco,
These are the fotos of "the hunchback of Java" you want to see...

Ganjawulung

Now i can see better: this pendawa hit could be 70% Jawa ( cirebon tegal : 50%, central Jawa 20%) and 30% Madura (no Sumbawa, no Sumatra)

The other hit could be the same

PenangsangII · 29th June 2007, 04:31 AM

Pak Ganja, AlamShah and friends,

So, what exactly the correct dapur that can go with the "hunchback of Java" and the semar? If not so much trouble, examples with pics please. Thx.

ganjawulung · 29th June 2007, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, AlamShah and friends,

So, what exactly the correct dapur that can go with the "hunchback of Java" and the semar? If not so much trouble, examples with pics please. Thx.

Dear Penangsang,

Regarding Semar is a "tindih" (neutralizer?) for of the Pandawa, I prefer to put the "semar hilt" in a tindih keris like this Jalak Budo. And I prefer the type of Javanese "walikat" like this. I hope it will fit properly....

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 29th June 2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Penangsang,

Regarding Semar is a "tindih" (neutralizer?) for of the Pandawa, I prefer to put the "semar hilt" in a tindih keris like this Jalak Budo. And I prefer the type of Javanese "walikat" like this. I hope it will fit properly....

Ganjawulung

Looks fitting and appropriate. The broad hilt matches the broad blade and sheath. Philosophy-wise is also fitting, me think.

27th June 2007, 05:38 AM	#31
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	... and not the same kind with this "chepot" (demi-god in wayang, Mas Bram knows it better) hilt. Just for comparison of the "bending" hilt... Ganjawulung Attached Images

27th June 2007, 08:13 AM	#32
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Salam Pak Ganja, From your vast experience, where does this wayang hilt come from? I thought I saw almost identical to this one i.e. demi god (rasaksa?) bowing before a king that was on sale here in KL. The seller told me it was Maduran Bajing or Bajang. If my Javanese is correct, Bajing means squirrel, and bajang is one of the feared rasaksa.... From your composition of the hilt & ferrule, I can also adduce (wild guess) that your complete hilt is of Sumbawa's origin .

27th June 2007, 01:36 PM	#34
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Dear Ganja a rare nice hit! I think it is from Jawa, but .... maybe also from Sumbawa....and the patterns coud be also from Sumatra . From a photo without selut or from a photo of the face alone maybe is possible to have better clues.

27th June 2007, 02:32 PM	#35
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,162	though it is not necessarily an indicator of origin the 'selut" looks very Sumatran to me. Very nice hilt BTW.

27th June 2007, 02:36 PM	#36
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Ganja, a unique hilt. Cepot (Bagong), with a squat body and has very big eyes. The ferrule (selut) is of South Sumatran type, Palembang comes to mind, imho.

29th June 2007, 04:31 AM	#41
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Pak Ganja, AlamShah and friends, So, what exactly the correct dapur that can go with the "hunchback of Java" and the semar? If not so much trouble, examples with pics please. Thx.