Keris and Hilt for Comment

ganjawulung · 24th June 2007, 08:05 AM

Dear All,

I obtained this (Bugis) keris this weekend. The blade and sheath, and separately the hilt, the hilt cup. I got too separately, six handles with motives. Is this Bugis with luks? I would like to have your comments, please...

Ganjawulung

Henk · 24th June 2007, 09:39 AM

Ganjawulung,

I hestitate a bit about this keris.

It is a lovely keris, that's for sure.

The sheath looks very Bugis to me, The ukiran is Sumatran but i doubt it is Bugis.
The keris itself isn't a Bugis blade but has a Javanese apearance.
Two possibilities. Javanese blades were highly apreciated and brought by sailors from Java to Sumatra. It is also known that keris blades on Sumatra were forged to Javanese origin.

That's why I hestitate to say this keris is Bugis. For the moment I would say Sumatra.

ganjawulung · 24th June 2007, 03:38 PM

Me too, Henk,

I hesitate to say that this is a correct Bugis composition. Frankly speaking, I got these keris' parts separately: the sheath and the blade, then the hilt. The hilt cup, I have kept this for quite a long time... I just try to compose it. So I need your comment on this composition...

Anyway, thanks a lot for your kind attention Henk...

Ganjawulung

BluErf · 24th June 2007, 04:57 PM

Hi,

Sheath is Sulawesi,

pendoko is Trengganu (N. Malay).

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

Blade has been washed in hi-contrast manner akin to Javanese kerises, but I don't think it is Javanese. From the dapur, it could be Sumatran Bugis.

BluErf · 24th June 2007, 05:06 PM

Here's the link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4601

There is a more similar example on Kampungnet, but I think the website may have "kicked the bucket" for good...

BluErf · 24th June 2007, 05:10 PM

Ok, here's the hilt on the Sulawesi keris belonging to Dave Henkel, which was on Kampungnet:

ganjawulung · 24th June 2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

...Sheath is Sulawesi,

pendoko is Trengganu (N. Malay).

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

Yes, BluErf,

I think this sheath is Sulawesi. Pretty sure, Bugis. Pendoko? This is something new for me. Thank you for informing, that this pendoko is Northern Malay. The hilts, I don't think this is a new one. I have cleaned it, with tooth-brush-shampoo and then with auto-polish

. Really, this is not new one. I just think this is original. The blade? Sure, not Javanese blade -- from the forging of pamor, and the details of keris.

The pamor, in Javanese term we call it "pamor tritikan" and not "untu walang" (grasshopper-teeth). But not as fine as Javanese pamor.

Thanks alot, BluErf. Very useful information from you...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2007, 11:28 PM

Ganja, would it be possible for you to do a close up of the sorsoran, and the pesi, I would especially like to see clearly the last , say, half inch of the pesi as it enters the gonjo.Thanks, Alan.

ganjawulung · 25th June 2007, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ganja, would it be possible for you to do a close up of the sorsoran, and the pesi, I would especially like to see clearly the last , say, half inch of the pesi as it enters the gonjo.Thanks, Alan.

Yes Alan,
For the sake of the keris knowledge, this is the picture you wish to see...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 25th June 2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

BluErf,
This is the sole picture of the hilt. And please regard too, to the other picture I took from Mr Hamzuri book, "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris" (Short Guide on Keris) published by the Department of Education and Culture (1973). Mr Hamzuri showed to the readers a Riau Lingga (Sumatera) keris which appearance looks like Sulawesi keris...

Ganjawulung

PenangsangII · 25th June 2007, 05:09 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

Very mean looking keris. I would think 10 times before engaging a combat duel with a person wielding it

.

I think the hilt is of Bugis Sumbawa origin. The rest, except for the ferrule are either Bugis or Bugis influence.

ganjawulung · 25th June 2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Very mean looking keris. I would think 10 times before engaging a combat duel with a person wielding it

I would think 20 times either

The blade is so "hurting". My finger was bleeding when I was rinsing it with water...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2007, 08:09 AM

Thanks Ganja, you've put my mind at rest.

Don't think I've ever seen that type of blade with that pamor.

Thanks again.

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

BluErf,
This is the sole picture of the hilt. And please regard too, to the other picture I took from Mr Hamzuri book, "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris" (Short Guide on Keris) published by the Department of Education and Culture (1973). Mr Hamzuri showed to the readers a Riau Lingga (Sumatera) keris which appearance looks like Sulawesi keris...

Ganjawulung

Ganja, I've seen the picture from the book and had seen the hlit up-close, when it was loaned to Malay Heritage Centre (in Singapore), some time ago. Also featured on the front cover of the book, Court Arts of Indonesia.

The form is similar but not the same...

BluErf · 25th June 2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

BluErf,
This is the sole picture of the hilt. And please regard too, to the other picture I took from Mr Hamzuri book, "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris" (Short Guide on Keris) published by the Department of Education and Culture (1973). Mr Hamzuri showed to the readers a Riau Lingga (Sumatera) keris which appearance looks like Sulawesi keris...

Ganjawulung

Hi Ganjawulung,

This keris you referred to is a famous keris, and it is an archetypal Riau Bugis keris. I would say it is the benchmark for all Riau Bugis kerises. Shahrial has a couple of Riau Bugis kerises with similar hilts. Perhaps Shahrial could post pics of his 2 keris hilts for comparison.

The reason why I think your keris hilt is Sulawesi rather than Riau was because of the pierced-through 'appendage' on the underside of the head and the more acute angle of bending of the head. The "appendage" is also present in the 2 examples I referred to above, but is not so obvious in Riau examples. The more acute angle of bending is a common feature in Sulawesi pistol-grip hilts.

However, I may be wrong. So if anyone has any information, references, please raise them. Thank you.

PenangsangII · 25th June 2007, 11:53 AM

According to Suhartono Rahardjo in his book 'Ragam Hulu Keris Sejak Zaman Kerajaan' published by Lembaga Kreasi Penerbitan Masyarakat (LKPM) Jan 2003, the kemuning hulu (kerdas) shown by Ganjawulung is from Sumbawa island, derived from Bugis pistol grip hulu. The author himself is an avid collector of keris hilt.

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

According to Suhartono Rahardjo in his book 'Ragam Hulu Keris Sejak Zaman Kerajaan' published by Lembaga Kreasi Penerbitan Masyarakat (LKPM) Jan 2003, the kemuning hulu (kerdas) shown by Ganjawulung is from Sumbawa island, derived from Bugis pistol grip hulu. The author himself is an avid collector of keris hilt.

For general knowledge, Suhartono Rahardjo's hilt book is good, but it does have its fair share of less accurate information for hilts outside Java. It should be taken with a pinch of salt. Perhaps, it might be due to hilt understanding from a Javanese standpoint.

Michael (VVV) have a similar hilt type, mounted on another weapon, which is not a keris, if I recall correctly.

Kai Wee, I'll take a close-up of my hilt soon, for comparison.

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

... This keris you referred to is a famous keris, and it is an archetypal Riau Bugis keris. I would say it is the benchmark for all Riau Bugis kerises. Shahrial has a couple of Riau Bugis kerises with similar hilts. Perhaps Shahrial could post pics of his 2 keris hilts for comparison.
...

An example of a hilt mounted on a Bugis Riau keris.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p31970087.html

Another example mounted on a Southern Peninsular keris.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p31948135.html

Compare...

Note: Throughout the Malay archipelago, there are many cases of mix and match with parts from other region.

PenangsangII · 25th June 2007, 12:56 PM

AlamShah, thanks for your yet again 'pictorial' explanation

.

If I may ask, what's the difference between the straits & Sulawesi hilts?

From my own observation, there's not much difference, maybe the way the keris is held the straits way - pinch grip (cucuk sanggul style), and Sulawesi way - real pistol grip (segenggam padi) due to taller pendokok stem. But this is of course subject to personal preference of the wielder

.

ganjawulung · 25th June 2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The reason why I think your keris hilt is Sulawesi rather than Riau was because of the pierced-through 'appendage' on the underside of the head and the more acute angle of bending of the head. The "appendage" is also present in the 2 examples I referred to above, but is not so obvious in Riau examples. The more acute angle of bending is a common feature in Sulawesi pistol-grip hilts.

Thanks for the useful infos, BluErf. In the coming days there will be more hilts, sheaths and kerises from Bugis, Sulawesi and Lombok which will be send to me by some friends. So I will need to have more infos from you..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 25th June 2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

For general knowledge, Suhartono Rahardjo's hilt book is good, but it does have its fair share of less accurate information for hilts outside Java. It should be taken with a pinch of salt. Perhaps, it might be due to hilt understanding from a Javanese standpoint.

Dear Shahrial,
So which book do you think is better on hilts? I knew personally Suhartono Rahardjo a couple years ago, but no more contact for a long time. As far as I know, he was (is) an engineer, working in Soroaco (nikel industry in Sulawesi), but he is Surabayanese... He has many collections on Nusantara hilts...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
So which book do you think is better on hilts?

That depends, which type of hilts are we talking about.

Peninsular hilts are not reflected in Suhartono's book. On page 66, Fig. 111, I don't think it's a Lampung hilt. For Fig. 112, I don't think it a Pekakak hilt form, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I knew personally Suhartono Rahardjo a couple years ago, but no more contact for a long time. As far as I know, he was (is) an engineer, working in Soroaco (nikel industry in Sulawesi), but he is Surabayanese... He has many collections on Nusantara hilts...

Thanks for the intro. If you happen to meet him, send my regards, for writing such a book which benefit us collectors. I reckon he does have an extensive collection, like you.

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

According to Suhartono Rahardjo in his book 'Ragam Hulu Keris Sejak Zaman Kerajaan' published by Lembaga Kreasi Penerbitan Masyarakat (LKPM) Jan 2003, the kemuning hulu (kerdas) shown by Ganjawulung is from Sumbawa island, derived from Bugis pistol grip hulu. The author himself is an avid collector of keris hilt.

Example of one of Sumbawa's hilt form...
(Ref: Tammens - De Kris 3, Pg: 193, Fig: 194.)

Alam Shah · 25th June 2007, 05:12 PM

Example of a similar Sulawesi hilt. For comparison...

(Ref: Kerner's Keris-Griffe, Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen, Pg: 141, Fig: 212).

ganjawulung · 26th June 2007, 03:16 AM

Thanks Shahrial,
This is for more comparison...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 26th June 2007, 03:31 AM

And different with these other Sulawesi hilts...

PenangsangII · 26th June 2007, 03:36 AM

Dear Pak Ganja,

Your hilt looks like from Sulawesi Buton if Mr Suhartono is right. I think when discussing Sulawesi (keris, sarung or hilt for that matter), we ought to remember not to confuse Buginese with Makasarese, though generally speaking they are from the same stock. I guess we shouldnt confuse Javanese with Sundanese either.

ganjawulung · 26th June 2007, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Your hilt looks like from Sulawesi Buton if Mr Suhartono is right. I think when discussing Sulawesi (keris, sarung or hilt for that matter), we ought to remember not to confuse Buginese with Makasarese, though generally speaking they are from the same stock. I guess we shouldnt confuse Javanese with Sundanese either.

Thanks a lot, Penangsang,

And the two hilts, are they Buginese? Or Buton?

PenangsangII · 26th June 2007, 04:16 AM

Pak Ganja,

About the other 2 hilts, they are not clearly stated by Mr Suhartono, but my take is.

the 1st one is makasarese because of the conic pistol grip type & the other one could be South Sulawesi Bugis. But I could be wrong too.

Alam Shah · 26th June 2007, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

...This is for more comparison...

... similar to mine. Mine is mounted on a Peninsular Malay keris...

24th June 2007, 08:05 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Keris and Hilt for Comment Dear All, I obtained this (Bugis) keris this weekend. The blade and sheath, and separately the hilt, the hilt cup. I got too separately, six handles with motives. Is this Bugis with luks? I would like to have your comments, please... Ganjawulung Attached Images

24th June 2007, 05:10 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, here's the hilt on the Sulawesi keris belonging to Dave Henkel, which was on Kampungnet: Attached Images

25th June 2007, 05:09 AM	#11
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Bugis Sumbawa Hello Pak Ganja, Very mean looking keris. I would think 10 times before engaging a combat duel with a person wielding it . I think the hilt is of Bugis Sumbawa origin. The rest, except for the ferrule are either Bugis or Bugis influence.

25th June 2007, 05:12 PM	#24
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sulawesi hilt example... Example of a similar Sulawesi hilt. For comparison... (Ref: Kerner's Keris-Griffe, Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen, Pg: 141, Fig: 212). Attached Images

26th June 2007, 03:16 AM	#25
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Shahrial, This is for more comparison... Ganjawulung Attached Images

24th June 2007, 09:39 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ganjawulung, I hestitate a bit about this keris. It is a lovely keris, that's for sure. The sheath looks very Bugis to me, The ukiran is Sumatran but i doubt it is Bugis. The keris itself isn't a Bugis blade but has a Javanese apearance. Two possibilities. Javanese blades were highly apreciated and brought by sailors from Java to Sumatra. It is also known that keris blades on Sumatra were forged to Javanese origin. That's why I hestitate to say this keris is Bugis. For the moment I would say Sumatra.

24th June 2007, 03:38 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Me too, Henk, I hesitate to say that this is a correct Bugis composition. Frankly speaking, I got these keris' parts separately: the sheath and the blade, then the hilt. The hilt cup, I have kept this for quite a long time... I just try to compose it. So I need your comment on this composition... Anyway, thanks a lot for your kind attention Henk... Ganjawulung

24th June 2007, 04:57 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi, Sheath is Sulawesi, pendoko is Trengganu (N. Malay). Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back. Blade has been washed in hi-contrast manner akin to Javanese kerises, but I don't think it is Javanese. From the dapur, it could be Sumatran Bugis.

24th June 2007, 05:06 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Here's the link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4601 There is a more similar example on Kampungnet, but I think the website may have "kicked the bucket" for good...

24th June 2007, 11:28 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,924	Ganja, would it be possible for you to do a close up of the sorsoran, and the pesi, I would especially like to see clearly the last , say, half inch of the pesi as it enters the gonjo.Thanks, Alan.

25th June 2007, 08:09 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,924	Thanks Ganja, you've put my mind at rest. Don't think I've ever seen that type of blade with that pamor. Thanks again.

25th June 2007, 11:53 AM	#16
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	According to Suhartono Rahardjo in his book 'Ragam Hulu Keris Sejak Zaman Kerajaan' published by Lembaga Kreasi Penerbitan Masyarakat (LKPM) Jan 2003, the kemuning hulu (kerdas) shown by Ganjawulung is from Sumbawa island, derived from Bugis pistol grip hulu. The author himself is an avid collector of keris hilt.

25th June 2007, 12:56 PM	#19
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	AlamShah, thanks for your yet again 'pictorial' explanation . If I may ask, what's the difference between the straits & Sulawesi hilts? From my own observation, there's not much difference, maybe the way the keris is held the straits way - pinch grip (cucuk sanggul style), and Sulawesi way - real pistol grip (segenggam padi) due to taller pendokok stem. But this is of course subject to personal preference of the wielder .

26th June 2007, 03:31 AM	#26
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	And different with these other Sulawesi hilts... Attached Images

26th June 2007, 03:36 AM	#27
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Bugis vs Makassar Dear Pak Ganja, Your hilt looks like from Sulawesi Buton if Mr Suhartono is right. I think when discussing Sulawesi (keris, sarung or hilt for that matter), we ought to remember not to confuse Buginese with Makasarese, though generally speaking they are from the same stock. I guess we shouldnt confuse Javanese with Sundanese either.

26th June 2007, 04:16 AM	#29
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Pak Ganja, About the other 2 hilts, they are not clearly stated by Mr Suhartono, but my take is. the 1st one is makasarese because of the conic pistol grip type & the other one could be South Sulawesi Bugis. But I could be wrong too.