Help..Information on Khanda scabbard design needed

katana · 30th March 2007, 07:13 PM

Hi,
please, I need information on the design of a Khanda scabbard so that I can make one. All the pictures I have seen have been from the 'facing' side and do not show the fittings (for hanging). The other thing I need to know is ....with the width of the 'spatula' tip ...would the throat of the scabbard be sized the same. Or is the top section of the scabbard 'slotted' from one side to allow the sword to be sheathed from the side (to allow a narrower throat...and a tighter fit for the sword).

'Period' decoration and scabbard fabric covering help, would also be gratefully received, thankyou

Regards David

galvano · 30th March 2007, 10:59 PM

Hello katana.
Tomorrow I would send photographs of my scabbard
galvano

galvano · 31st March 2007, 11:55 AM

photographs of my scabbard
It is covered with velour green

Jens Nordlunde · 31st March 2007, 04:33 PM

Hi Katana,

When making your scabbard, you must decide what kind of scabbard it is going to be, as not all Indian swords were hanging, a lot of them were carried in the hand, or stuck into the belt, but these had no fittings for hanging. If we change from the khandas to the firangis, then I don’t think I have seen a firangi with rings for hanging – maybe be course it was usually too long to draw when hanging from a belt, who knows.

Nice pictures Galvano

.

katana · 31st March 2007, 08:29 PM

Hi Galvano,
thankyou very much for your time and effort....the pictures are excellent

The scabbard certainly has age and is very nice… can't wait to get some decent wood and start making mine

Hi Jens, thanks for the extra info. I was concerned that with the long blade ... unsheathing the sword quickly might be a problem and would have needed a special arrangement of how it was 'hung'/carried.
Would there have been a ‘hand grip’ area on the ‘carry type’ of scabbard ? Would the ‘carry type’ be made more strongly…perhaps reinforced as it would make a useful defensive 'stick' when used with the sword 'unsheathed'.

katana · 13th June 2007, 07:19 PM

Well. I finally started the scabbard. I sourced some mahogany from a damaged 19th C Victorian chest of drawers, so it is well seasoned.
I am alittle concerned that the scabbard seems to be too wide, especially when compared to the hilt. I can remove more material from either side...but want to keep its structural strength.
Please any comments gratefully received, as I want to get the scabbard 'right' before covering with authentic velvet. Any suggestions as to the colour of velvet. I suspect that there would be cultural / religious / regional reasons for the choice of colour

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2007, 08:25 PM

Nice work on the scabbard Katana! I admire the way you are approaching its construction and acquiring period material and so on. I would note as you asked on the width, it does seem a bit wide, but perhaps once covered and complete not critical. I honestly have seen few of these in scabbards so my opinion probably not well guaged.
On the color it seems that most tulwars have been green or burgundy/red in color, but again not sure on khandas. Interesting thought to consider the symbolic relevance of color on these and I would be very interested to hear more on this. One good source would likely be "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood. The book on the Figiel collection also has some interesting illustrations of scabbards which I believe were recently furbished for the weapons.

Galvano, nice piece you show there! The scabbard is most interesting as the repousse on throat piece and end as well as the ring mounts seem very much like those seen on saif from Arabia. Elgood has suggested in his "Arms and Armour of Arabia" that the repousse hilt saifs with somewhat similar scabbard mounts were produced for Arabia in Hyderabad. As Jens points out, not all Indian swords were suspended in scabbards with rings, some may have been in a sash carry or over the shoulder belt.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 14th June 2007, 12:56 AM

Hi Jim,
nice to hear from you, thanks for the reply and comments

. You have re-inforced my feeling that the sheath is too wide. I should be able to slim it down by approximately 1/2".

As to colour (color

) significance I found this.....

...."The saffron colour is considered auspicious by Hindus. This color has a special significance to the Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs. Among the Sikhs it is considered to be a militant colour signifying a fight against injustice. Saffron coloured triangular flag is considered to be a religious symbol.. This flag is seen flying atop temples (Mandirs) and Gurudwaras."...

This is colour linked to religion, interestingly Green has similar meaning to Muslims. I can find no reference to colours that represented region/ kingdom alliance/Ruler or other belief 'criteria'.

Regards David

Henk · 14th June 2007, 09:08 PM

Katana,

That scabbard looks great. Good job!!!
Look at the pictures of the scabbard Galvano showed, especially the mouth. I also think you can slim the scabbard down like Jim said.
It will do the khanda more justice.

Waiting for the final result.

galvano · 14th June 2007, 10:27 PM

Hello
I think that the wood of origin was less hard
Rather a " white " wood.
I believe that the width is good.
galvano

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2007, 01:16 AM

As to colour (color

) significance I found this.....

...."The saffron colour is considered auspicious by Hindus. This color has a special significance to the Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs. Among the Sikhs it is considered to be a militant colour signifying a fight against injustice. Saffron coloured triangular flag is considered to be a religious symbol.. This flag is seen flying atop temples (Mandirs) and Gurudwaras."...

This is colour linked to religion, interestingly Green has similar meaning to Muslims. I can find no reference to colours that represented region/ kingdom alliance/Ruler or other belief 'criteria'.

Hi David,
Nice work on finding the data on the colors! I just recalled another great source "Islamic Arms and Armour of Mughal India" by Haider. There are many outstanding color plates of mounted warriors which clearly illustrate the accoutrements and colors and there are plates showing the pennons as well. The green is as you note, a very sacred color in Islam as I understand. I cannot think of regional or other geopolitical color symbolism as applied especially to scabbards. I would presume Rajput or Sikh associations with the khanda in this case, recalling of course the Mahratta as well.

Although it sounds like extra work on your scabbard, it appears you're well on the right track, and it will be worthwhile.

Keep us posted!

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 16th June 2007, 06:54 PM

Nice work Katana, narrower as the others say would be good, after all velvet will also add quite alot to its width & thickness.

The colour traditionaly used most on velvet scabbards in Nepal is Simrik, which of course is saffron or crimson colour.

In fact it is the official National colour of Nepal & is written into there constitution as such, It is used to signify the braveness & toughness of the Nepali people.

I imagine that perhaps it originates as representative as the blood of the fallen heros?

Spiral

katana · 17th June 2007, 03:30 PM

Thankyou Henk, Galvano, Jim and Spiral, for your comments

(Spiral I seem to remember you are/were a cabinet maker....so praise indeed, thank you

)

Galvano, I didn't know that most scabbards were of 'white wood', I chose mahogany for its strengh and durabillity. Mahagony was planted in India during the Colonial era.......so there is a chance that the wood I used was grown in India

I have removed more wood from the scabbard and I think it has improved the 'look'. Just need to 'tidy' the 'mouth' of the scabbard
As to the velvet covering I am trying to 'source' some old velvet from, say, old curtains. I think 'new' velvet would not 'look right'....would prefer the slightly worn/faded look.

30th March 2007, 07:13 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Help..Information on Khanda scabbard design needed Hi, please, I need information on the design of a Khanda scabbard so that I can make one. All the pictures I have seen have been from the 'facing' side and do not show the fittings (for hanging). The other thing I need to know is ....with the width of the 'spatula' tip ...would the throat of the scabbard be sized the same. Or is the top section of the scabbard 'slotted' from one side to allow the sword to be sheathed from the side (to allow a narrower throat...and a tighter fit for the sword). 'Period' decoration and scabbard fabric covering help, would also be gratefully received, thankyou Regards David

30th March 2007, 10:59 PM	#2
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	scabbard Hello katana. Tomorrow I would send photographs of my scabbard galvano

31st March 2007, 11:55 AM	#3
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	photos photographs of my scabbard It is covered with velour green Attached Images

31st March 2007, 04:33 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Katana, When making your scabbard, you must decide what kind of scabbard it is going to be, as not all Indian swords were hanging, a lot of them were carried in the hand, or stuck into the belt, but these had no fittings for hanging. If we change from the khandas to the firangis, then I don’t think I have seen a firangi with rings for hanging – maybe be course it was usually too long to draw when hanging from a belt, who knows. Nice pictures Galvano.

13th June 2007, 07:19 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Well. I finally started the scabbard. I sourced some mahogany from a damaged 19th C Victorian chest of drawers, so it is well seasoned. I am alittle concerned that the scabbard seems to be too wide, especially when compared to the hilt. I can remove more material from either side...but want to keep its structural strength. Please any comments gratefully received, as I want to get the scabbard 'right' before covering with authentic velvet. Any suggestions as to the colour of velvet. I suspect that there would be cultural / religious / regional reasons for the choice of colour Attached Images

31st March 2007, 08:29 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Galvano, thankyou very much for your time and effort....the pictures are excellent The scabbard certainly has age and is very nice… can't wait to get some decent wood and start making mine Hi Jens, thanks for the extra info. I was concerned that with the long blade ... unsheathing the sword quickly might be a problem and would have needed a special arrangement of how it was 'hung'/carried. Would there have been a ‘hand grip’ area on the ‘carry type’ of scabbard ? Would the ‘carry type’ be made more strongly…perhaps reinforced as it would make a useful defensive 'stick' when used with the sword 'unsheathed'.

13th June 2007, 08:25 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Nice work on the scabbard Katana! I admire the way you are approaching its construction and acquiring period material and so on. I would note as you asked on the width, it does seem a bit wide, but perhaps once covered and complete not critical. I honestly have seen few of these in scabbards so my opinion probably not well guaged. On the color it seems that most tulwars have been green or burgundy/red in color, but again not sure on khandas. Interesting thought to consider the symbolic relevance of color on these and I would be very interested to hear more on this. One good source would likely be "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood. The book on the Figiel collection also has some interesting illustrations of scabbards which I believe were recently furbished for the weapons. Galvano, nice piece you show there! The scabbard is most interesting as the repousse on throat piece and end as well as the ring mounts seem very much like those seen on saif from Arabia. Elgood has suggested in his "Arms and Armour of Arabia" that the repousse hilt saifs with somewhat similar scabbard mounts were produced for Arabia in Hyderabad. As Jens points out, not all Indian swords were suspended in scabbards with rings, some may have been in a sash carry or over the shoulder belt. All the best, Jim

14th June 2007, 12:56 AM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, nice to hear from you, thanks for the reply and comments . You have re-inforced my feeling that the sheath is too wide. I should be able to slim it down by approximately 1/2". As to colour (color ) significance I found this..... ...."The saffron colour is considered auspicious by Hindus. This color has a special significance to the Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs. Among the Sikhs it is considered to be a militant colour signifying a fight against injustice. Saffron coloured triangular flag is considered to be a religious symbol.. This flag is seen flying atop temples (Mandirs) and Gurudwaras."... This is colour linked to religion, interestingly Green has similar meaning to Muslims. I can find no reference to colours that represented region/ kingdom alliance/Ruler or other belief 'criteria'. Regards David

14th June 2007, 09:08 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Katana, That scabbard looks great. Good job!!! Look at the pictures of the scabbard Galvano showed, especially the mouth. I also think you can slim the scabbard down like Jim said. It will do the khanda more justice. Waiting for the final result.

14th June 2007, 10:27 PM	#10
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hello Hello I think that the wood of origin was less hard Rather a " white " wood. I believe that the width is good. galvano

15th June 2007, 01:16 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	As to colour (color ) significance I found this..... ...."The saffron colour is considered auspicious by Hindus. This color has a special significance to the Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs. Among the Sikhs it is considered to be a militant colour signifying a fight against injustice. Saffron coloured triangular flag is considered to be a religious symbol.. This flag is seen flying atop temples (Mandirs) and Gurudwaras."... This is colour linked to religion, interestingly Green has similar meaning to Muslims. I can find no reference to colours that represented region/ kingdom alliance/Ruler or other belief 'criteria'. Hi David, Nice work on finding the data on the colors! I just recalled another great source "Islamic Arms and Armour of Mughal India" by Haider. There are many outstanding color plates of mounted warriors which clearly illustrate the accoutrements and colors and there are plates showing the pennons as well. The green is as you note, a very sacred color in Islam as I understand. I cannot think of regional or other geopolitical color symbolism as applied especially to scabbards. I would presume Rajput or Sikh associations with the khanda in this case, recalling of course the Mahratta as well. Although it sounds like extra work on your scabbard, it appears you're well on the right track, and it will be worthwhile. Keep us posted! All the best, Jim

16th June 2007, 06:54 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice work Katana, narrower as the others say would be good, after all velvet will also add quite alot to its width & thickness. The colour traditionaly used most on velvet scabbards in Nepal is Simrik, which of course is saffron or crimson colour. In fact it is the official National colour of Nepal & is written into there constitution as such, It is used to signify the braveness & toughness of the Nepali people. I imagine that perhaps it originates as representative as the blood of the fallen heros? Spiral

17th June 2007, 03:30 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou Henk, Galvano, Jim and Spiral, for your comments (Spiral I seem to remember you are/were a cabinet maker....so praise indeed, thank you ) Galvano, I didn't know that most scabbards were of 'white wood', I chose mahogany for its strengh and durabillity. Mahagony was planted in India during the Colonial era.......so there is a chance that the wood I used was grown in India I have removed more wood from the scabbard and I think it has improved the 'look'. Just need to 'tidy' the 'mouth' of the scabbard As to the velvet covering I am trying to 'source' some old velvet from, say, old curtains. I think 'new' velvet would not 'look right'....would prefer the slightly worn/faded look. Attached Images