Tulwar scabbard

[Pukka Bundook]

I'm here again for some help!

I'm working on the scabbard for the "Good news/bad news Tulwar"
This Tulwar is from N/W india, and has an Afghan scabbard.

And here's what I find;
The middle fitting on the original broken scabbard fits on with the decorative side on the "wrong" side, .....In other words, it Looks at first glance to be made for a left-hander.
The wood has a clean patch, where the fitting sat, so there's no doubt it was put on this way

Now then!......... What I Do Not understand, is the middle fitting Only matches the "imprint" on the wood, when it is fitted UPside down.
In other words, when the carrying ring is on the lower side, (To-wards the cutting edge)

Also, the middle mount is worn, where the ring passes through it, on this same 'wrong end'

It looks awfully like the scabbard was made, to carry the sword with the 'sharp-side UP.

Question:- Has anyone seen an Afghan scabbard made to carry a sword this way????

Thank you for any help! it is wonderful to have a resource like this!

Richard.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I'm here again for some help!

I'm working on the scabbard for the "Good news/bad news Tulwar"
This Tulwar is from N/W india, and has an Afghan scabbard.

And here's what I find;
The middle fitting on the original broken scabbard fits on with the decorative side on the "wrong" side, .....In other words, it Looks at first glance to be made for a left-hander.
The wood has a clean patch, where the fitting sat, so there's no doubt it was put on this way

Now then!......... What I Do Not understand, is the middle fitting Only matches the "imprint" on the wood, when it is fitted UPside down.
In other words, when the carrying ring is on the lower side, (To-wards the cutting edge)

Also, the middle mount is worn, where the ring passes through it, on this same 'wrong end'

It looks awfully like the scabbard was made, to carry the sword with the 'sharp-side UP.

Question:- Has anyone seen an Afghan scabbard made to carry a sword this way????

Thank you for any help! it is wonderful to have a resource like this!

Richard.

Quite possibly ........

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=afgan

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

The way the middle fitting is shown on your picture, the ring is on the inside of the curve, and this is the way it would have been. To draw a sword with a tulwar hilt, with a hand guard, would not be easy if the rings are on the outside of the curve. Other swords can be seen with the rings either way, but they have different hilts. The tulwar was worn carried in the hand, stuck into the belt, carried attached to the belt with straps and rings or worn over the shoulder in a string. Btw your sword can be Afghan, but it can be north/northwest Indian as well.

The example Rick shows could also be a variant, but these swords have only one ring, and yours must have had two.


Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for the link, Rick.

Jens,
I know on the photo's of this scabbard show the ring in the usual place, but the middle fitting was slack as the scabbard is broken at that point.
When I removed the fitting, the "Imprint" on the wood only matches with the fitting when the fitting is put on the other way up.
When the fitting is in the usual position,(As seen in the photos) the imprint and fitting don't align.

Best wishes,
R

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,
What if you turn the fitting upside down and turn it? It could be, that the seller just put it on the scabbard, not thinking on how it should be.
Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
If I turn the fitting upside down and turn it, the decorative side won't be where the 'imprint' is. I can see we might bog down on this one, as it is hard to describe what I mean!
Below are added some pictures.

The first picture shows the middle fitting with the decorative side facing us.
The "imprint" on the wood, shows that the decorative side was always On this side. As can be seen, this would appear to make the scabbard left-handed.

#2, shows decoration and imprint aligned, but this means that the ring is on the cutting side of blade.

#3, shows that with the ring in the usual position, (on the inside of the curve) the decoration does not line up quite with the 'imprint.

#4, shows the 'imprint on this side of the scabbard.

#5 shows the mount removed from decoration, it appears to have never been apart before, but notice, the ring is on the narrower side of the mount, as though it was indeed made to fit on the 'outsid' of the curve, ie, ring nearest the cutting edge.

This struck me as a bit interesting, but if no-one has seen one mounted in this manner, I'll just mount it in the conventional way.

Sorry this sounds a bit confusing!!

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

It all looks very strange, and it seems as if the ring has been placed on the outer curve, which, to my oppinion, would be most unusual. I think I would place the rings of the old and new fittings on the inner curve – maybe the user was very excentric. Btw the upper fitting, could very well have looked like the mid part of the fitting you show in detail.

Nice pictures.


Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,

Yes, I think I'd better make this scabbard in the normal manner, even if this one Was made the other way around.
............Otherwise, everyone who saw it would be telling me, "You made it wrong!!"....(Even if "right" is "wrong" in this case!)

I am looking forward to making the upper fitting, and agree that this would most likely be the same as the mid section of the middle fitting, maybe with some decoration only on the lower end.

Do you have any idea how these iron mounts were finished, originally?

Was wondering if they would be browned, blued, painted, or left bright.

Also, a very thin Red foil was placed inside the pierced fittings, to show through. This foil has oxidized in part, and the colour has come off in places, leaving it transparent.
Do you have any idea what this may have been? (The foil was gold on the inside, and red on the showing side)

Please pardon all the questions!
I find all this very interesting!!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
Actually the Afghan version of the shashka, which is often very difficult to discern from Uzbek examples, and the lower carrying ring is indeed placed on the outward (cutting curve).On the upper mount (closest to scabbard throat), the carrying ring is placed dead center on the outside (face) of scabbard.
This was sort of a 'quick draw' configuration that favored the Central Asian drawcut right out of the scabbard, the sword was worn edge up!
The red foil affectation was a decorative embellishment taken from Persian influence, recalling that the Afghans also favored the Persian shamshir, and the pierced mounts on those scabbards often had such features.

Since we know that tulwars from the Northwest frontier regions certainly diffused into Afghan regions, it would seem likely that an Afghan armourer mounting the weapon would construct a scabbard with mounts typical to the paluoars and even shashkas that he might furbish.

Again, this tulwar is fascinating in these mounts and reflects wonderfully comprehensive influences from these colorful powers and the times where the geopolitical conflicts in these regions were often referred to as "The Great Game".

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,

Yes, this is true, but consider the hilt - a tulwar hilt with a hand guard!
The foil, red with gold on the backside is a puzzle to me, had it been the other way around, I would have said that the red would have given the gold a deeper colour, but when it is thís way, then I really don't know.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
You're right, the red hue placed over gold does seem puzzling, but I have been told that Persians favored this and I wonder if it might have been to subdue the gold while carrying through the gleam, kind of a 'candy apple' effect. I recall many years ago in the custom car days that gold undercoat was often a primer to add the lustre to the 'candy apple red' so favored by car enthusiasts.

While the tulwar, especially with handguard, seemed atypical of the Afghans who favored the guardless shamshir, paluoar and even shashka, it may well be this was a captured weapon which was furbished especially for the warrior who owned it. If this was indeed a trophy weapon, it would not seem unlikely that the handguard was quite acceptable to the individual. While the style of swordsmanship for government forces of the Khan clearly leaned toward the British influences, as evidenced by the handguards on the previously discussed swords from the 1890's, it is interesting to note a warrior using this type tulwar with the 'drawcut' scabbard.

It is also interesting that such incongruent hybridization is seen as well on examples of these government handguards placed on huge blades of the well known 'Khyber knives'. I have forgotten who out there has one of these, but I think Rick will remember !

All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Well chaps,
I find all this very interesting, but don't have much constructive to add

So how do you think I should mount this up?........Conventional, or "Quick-draw!?
I will bow to whichever way you learned Gentlemen think best!

Jim,
You mention "Government hand-guards"
Is that what we have here?
If so, what date roughly?

Do either of you know how the iron furniture was finished originally?
I would not re-finish these mounts, but wondered what they may have looked like when new.

Thank you again for your time and patience!

R.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
By 'government ' hilts, I am referring to the Afghan swords pictured on the thread that Rick linked in his post March 16th. This tulwar actually is from northern India and has nothing to do with those swords or hilts, however does interestingly seem to have been scabbarded by an Afghan. The tulwar itself seem likely of mid 19th century, possibly into 1870's.

Since there is only the center mount, and it seems to be situated conventionally, I think I would follow suit. Even though this scabbard follows Afghan style, it does not seem unreasonable to assume the mounts were quite possibly in conformity to most other tulwar scabbards. Just my opinion
As for finish, just adhere to that of the existing mounts.

All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Well,
This is as far as I've got making the scabbard and top mount.

Attached are pictures;

1, of old mid-fitting on new wood.

2, The new top fitting, "aged"

and then ;

3, New fitting "in the white", plus old centre fitting.

4, new top fitting "in white"

5, old and new fitting in place.

Do you learned chaps think this is OK??

If so, just need to add a leather or fabric cover to the wood, and we'll be done....

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very well done. I would like to see some pictures when you have the fabric on the scabbard. What kind of wood did you use for the scabbard?
Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Hello Jens.
I do not remember what the wood was, I was given it and was led to understand it was from Australia.
Nice straight grain and rather hard.

Will add a picture when cover is added.
Pleased you like it so far.....

Richard.

[josh stout]

On the subject of red over gold, this was also quite popular in Tibet and China. So if the Persians also did it, it seems that it was universal if somewhat rare.

Here is an example of the remains of gold and red paint on some shuang jian.
Josh

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation346.jpg

[katana]

Hi Richard,
well done scabbard looks ace

I assume you traced the outline of the blade on two planks of wood, chiselled the 'depressions' to accept the blade, cut the scabbard halves from the plank. Joined the halves (temporary ?) to check blade fitted, once OK . Joined the halves and 'finished' the external surfaces. Any additional info would be appreciated as I have several 'scabbardless' swords I would like to sheath.

As to scabbard 'coverings' if you are going to use a cloth....I think I am right in saying that a cotton/canvas backing should be between the covering material and wood.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Josh,

Nice to see you here. You are right about the gold/red, I wonder why I did not think about it?

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,
There's not much to add to what you have already deduced about making a scabbard.
In fact, that's about exactly what I did.!.........
Except I drew around blade on one piece of wood, as they'd fit inside each other's curve, if you get mi drift!

Only thing to remember is to flip the blade over before you draw 'round it the second time!!
With the 'troughs' cut, I lay the blade in the cut-out troughs, and tried "drawing" it, watching for any area it would 'ride up' out of the channel when drawn,, then cut out tight spots.
Once I had it cut out and clamped together, and had clearance for blade to draw, I cut out the out-side lines very close to finished size.
This was to avoid cutting through the walls when finishing.

Also, put a witness mark across both halves when everything fits together right, before gluing.

When glued, I greased the blade a bit so it wouldn't stick, and ran it in and out, to make sure no glue globs would set and interfere with sword passage.
I kept doing this now and again, as glue dried.

Only other thing, on a lot of wood, when you've "stabbed in" with the chisel on your initial pencil line, it's often Much easier to cut with chisel across the grain, to-wards your initial stab in cut.
(Rather than trying to run chisel down the grain, where the grain tends to have a mind of its own!!)
Thats all I know about it.........
Though I'm sure there are chaps here that know a whole lot more!!

Re the canvas or cotton, before velvet, You probabnly know a lot more about it than I do.
On this one, the bit of rotton velvet that had survived, was glued straight to the wood, overlapped and not stitched in place at all.

Can you tell me what the normal application process was?

Thanks Dave,

Richard.

[katana]

Hi Richard,
thanks for the additional info

As to the cotton/canvas backing....It probably depends on the 'finishing' material. I think the idea of the backing is to 'smooth out' the surface so that finer fabrics appear smoother. Velvet would not show any minor imperfections in the woodwork below.......I am not suggesting there are 'imperfections' in your own scabbard (it actually looks very nice, the fittings set it off nicely...but I do not think the wood would have been left 'uncovered' originally....unfortunately) Glueing seems to be the normal method, however I do not know what sort of adhesive would have been used originally. Most modern 'contact' adhesives should be OK....but I would recommend that you 'seal' the wood first by applying a coat of the adhesive to the scabbard and letting it dry.....and then use the glue to bond the fabric 'coating'. I have one velvet covered scabbard which has the 'seam' ( folded edge) hidden beneath some decorative 'edging' but do not know whether this is traditional.I want to make a scabbard for the khanda but would like to find a 'period' looking covering for the wooden core......and the 'suspension' rings/mountings will have to be fabricated.(again I will have to find examples). I really like those on your scabbard.....sufficently ornate without being 'over the top'.

One other thought....the scabbard furniture...was it fixed/riveted to the scabbard or bonded/glued to the scabbard?

Regards David

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi David,
The middle fitting was loose when I got the scabbard, and no sign of glue or anything to hold it in place. Probably a friction fit.
On new scabbard, It took a while sanding and fitting 'till the fittings would slide up far enough to align in their original position, as scabbard has some taper.
The velvet had been added After the fittings were in place, fitted and glued around their contours.

The lower fitting was interesting.
The last 7 inches or so of scabbard was an add-on, either because of an earlier breakage, or more likely, the wood used wasn't wide enough for the curve.
This added piece was half-lapped and glued together with the same resin that is used to glue the tang into the hilt. (Peepole tree resin?)
Also, this same resin had beed added fairly thickly to lower part of scabbard,to glue the chape (or lower fitting) into place.

Re. the decorative strip to cover the join in the fabric;

Q. Can you (or anyone else for that matter!) tell me if this strip is normally on the showing side or Inside of the scabbard??
Thanks in advance,

Richard.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Re. the decorative strip to cover the join in the fabric;

Q. Can you (or anyone else for that matter!) tell me if this strip is normally on the showing side or Inside of the scabbard??
Thanks in advance,

Richard.

Hi Richard,
The join (on my one) is on the facing side.....but do not know if this is usual. Looking forward to the pictures of the finished scabbard.

Regards David