Mameluke sword

[Turkoman.khan]

Hi guys

Please help me with the monogram on the saber blade. This is the saber of an officer of the 16th The Queen's Lancers. Above the regimental symbol I see the motto Order of the Garter with a royal crown above it. There is a monogram in the center of the divise. Perhaps someone knows its meaning?

[corrado26]

I think this could be a "CC" = monogram of Charles II. 1660-1685 but am not certain if this fits the time of the sabre.

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think this could be a "CC" = monogram of Charles II. 1660-1685 but am not certain if this fits the time of the sabre.

Thank you very much for the version. I was also told that this could be the double cypher of Queen Charlotte, who was the patroness of this regiment.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Turkoman.khan

... I was also told that this could be the double cypher of Queen Charlotte, who was the patroness of this regiment...

Not likely .


.

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by fernando

Not likely .


.

Thanks fernando. But there is such information

[fernando]

Oops !

[Jim McDougall]

This is a remarkably beautiful British cavalry officers 'mameluke' saber from a very famous British cavalry unit, who were most famed for their charge at the Battle of Aliwal against Sikh forces in 1846. In this fateful charge half of the 300 men in the 16th were lost.
During action, the lance pennons were furled, but after, as men tried to unfurl these, they had become crimped with the dried blood. In a regimental tradition, in honor of the men and that charge, the 16th always crimped their pennons.

In the early days of the regiment 1760s, they were known as the 16th Light Dragoons, and with Queen Charlotte as their patron, they became 'Queen Charlotte's Own' in the British honorary convention.
The device with Latin inscription is the Order of the Garter, the British highly honored award, not in particular to the Queen.
The words 'Honi Soit qui Mai y Pense' = shame on him who thinks evil of it'. This has to the medieval beginnings of the order.

The blade, etched decoration etc. suggests this was a saber mounted in India with outfitters in the key locations of administration during the Raj.
The 'mameluke' saber became popular after the Napoleonic campaigns, as sort of an unofficial dress saber of officers in the early 19th c.
In 1822 lancer officers adopted this form.
Given the long presence of the 16th in India, in my view there is little doubt this is 'a saber of the Raj'.

The Order of the Garter is commemorative and does not signify an award to a particular officer, but in association with Queen Charlotte and the regiments tradition.

In 1831 the mameluke became regulation for British officers of high rank, but remained popularly worn by cavalry officers, especially in India.

[Radboud]

Lovely mameluke sabre Turkoman, do you have the scabbard for it as well?

As Jim notes, these swords were officially sanctioned for the first time in the Dress Regulations of 1822 when they were prescribed for officers of the 9th, 12th and 16th Lancers with a plain metal scabbard for dress and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress.

I have one that is attributed to the 12th (The Prince of Wales) Royal Lancers:

[Jim McDougall]

These are breathtaking! Thanks for adding the 12th Lancers!

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Lovely mameluke sabre Turkoman, do you have the scabbard for it as well?

As Jim notes, these swords were officially sanctioned for the first time in the Dress Regulations of 1822 when they were prescribed for officers of the 9th, 12th and 16th Lancers with a plain metal scabbard for dress and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress.

I have one that is attributed to the 12th (The Prince of Wales) Royal Lancers:

Dear Jim, thank you very much for displaying the beautiful sword and for the information about the British Cavalry Mameluke Sword.
In the evening I will post a photo with the scabbard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The device with Latin inscription is the Order of the Garter ...

A sort of French ... if may, Jim . As the legend that, (according to the most popular version), originates in an event occurred in 1347 in a court ball in Calais. Supposedly the motto was written in Anglo Norman, a dialect of Old Norman French, spoken in a period by the English ruling class.
But you know all that, of course .

[Turkoman.khan]

Sword

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A sort of French ... if may, Jim . As the legend that, (according to the most popular version), originates in an event occurred in 1347 in a court ball in Calais. Supposedly the motto was written in Anglo Norman, a dialect of Old Norman French, spoken in a period by the English ruling class.
But you know all that, of course .

Wow, thank you for correcting that!!! If I had googled this as well, I would have caught this before writing. I knew of the apocryphal event, but as Latin was such a predominant lingua francia of the times (in legal, administrative and religious matters in particular) it was easy to presume this was the case.
It is most interesting to know of the Anglo-Norman dialects,for the record, and as always I appreciate the elucidation, as clearly I did not know this.

As I have always said, here we learn, together.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Turkoman.khan

Dear Jim, thank you very much for displaying the beautiful sword and for the information about the British Cavalry Mameluke Sword.
In the evening I will post a photo with the scabbard

Thank you for the kind words Turkoman, but the beautiful saber posted was Radboud's (I WISH it was mine! yours as well!)

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the kind words Turkoman, but the beautiful saber posted was Radboud's (I WISH it was mine! yours as well!)

[Radboud]

Turkoman, that's a very nice scabbard as well and a bonus to have. Your sabre has quite the curve to it, more than we typically see. Must have been an especially 'fashionable' officer who first carried this sword.

I have a soft spot for mamelukes, but the ivory poses a problem in adding more to the collection. My other sabre is a lot plainer, and has the steel scabbard and steel crossguard:

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Turkoman, that's a very nice scabbard as well and a bonus to have. Your sabre has quite the curve to it, more than we typically see. Must have been an especially 'fashionable' officer who first carried this sword.

I have a soft spot for mamelukes, but the ivory poses a problem in adding more to the collection. My other sabre is a lot plainer, and has the steel scabbard and steel crossguard:

Thank you very much for displaying a beautiful saber.