Nubian? dagger

ariel · 2nd July 2006, 02:16 PM

Just ended and congratulation to Charles!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Ain't no Nubian! Persian, 1175 H, or 1761 Gregorian.
Very nice blade, especially the base cartouche part. Pity the scabbard was lost.
I am wondering whether my impression of a very thin and flat blade is correct? I would also guess the handle is a replacement: plain bone and pretty rough; does not fit with the elaborate blade. The original must have been more sumptuous.

Valjhun · 2nd July 2006, 03:01 PM

I think sudanese. The hiklt is typical. The blade is very nice, but still has an overall sudanese apparence... If in fact sudanese, is it the best I've seen. Could be persian as sensei said, but rehilted long ago in Sudan. Nice value for the money!!!

Lew · 2nd July 2006, 03:07 PM

Ariel

I think that the blade could be original to the hilt. It's good quality blade and my guess is that it was made in Khartoum. Sorry Ariel the blade quality does not say Persian to me it's a little ruff looking it may be a copy of a Persian blade?

Lew

ariel · 2nd July 2006, 06:21 PM

I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality. This one is, IMHO, far more sophisticated.
As to the handle, here is one from "Orez Perski", same configuration. Marked as Qaddara, Persian, 18th century. And I also disagree about the age: this one still has file marks all over the bone. They would have been long polished off after 250 years. Not a single crack? Not a damaged corner? Not a spot of discoloration? How often do you see such a pristine bone/ivory handle on a 250 yo dagger?

Aurangzeb · 2nd July 2006, 09:44 PM

Hello All!

In my opinion the hilt is almost certainly Sudanese, the shape and material used is Sudanese, and the use of a dark bone/horn end cap I have seen on several Sudanese daggers. The blade is the nicest I have seen on daggers similer to it. And the etching near the back of the blade where the writing is is very much like the type on my dagger but is a desigen instead of a verse from the Koran. For beoing as old as it is it is in very good condition.

Mark...
Here's a link to a similer one I have but of less quality blade.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sudanese

Lew · 2nd July 2006, 10:33 PM

[QUOTE=ariel]I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality.

Ariel

There happens to have been some exceptional Sudanese pieces made for the weathier class back in the late 1800s. This one is from Artzi's website. Notice the similarity in the blade shape.

Lew · 2nd July 2006, 10:35 PM

[QUOTE=ariel]I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality.

Ariel

There happens to have been some exceptional Sudanese pieces made for the wealthier class back in the late 1800s. This one is from Artzi's website. Notice the similarity in the blade shape and grind lines they are nearly identical. This dagger is as far from primitive as it gets.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2006, 12:27 AM

Lew,
Thanks for posting the fantastic Sudanese dagger!!! Artzi definitely has a knack for presenting outstanding items.
The four pronged geometric stamp at the forte is most interesting, any ideas on its meaning? Could it be makers mark/arsenal stamp?
The silverwork seems consistant with kaskara mountings found in Darfur, would this be considered a Fur weapon?

Best regards,
jim

Lew · 3rd July 2006, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Lew,
Thanks for posting the fantastic Sudanese dagger!!! Artzi definitely has a knack for presenting outstanding items.
The four pronged geometric stamp at the forte is most interesting, any ideas on its meaning? Could it be makers mark/arsenal stamp?
The silverwork seems consistant with kaskara mountings found in Darfur, would this be considered a Fur weapon?

Best regards,
jim

Jim

I heard that it represents a famous battle or siege but this can be another urban legend. I have a dagger with the same stamp. These daggers were made in Omdurman which is a few miles west of Khartoum I do not think they were Dafur.
Lew

CharlesS · 3rd July 2006, 04:26 AM

Sight yet unseen, I am convinced that this is Sudanese. Both the blade and the hilt seem so to me. If you look at the pics with close ups of the blade, you will see the blade is not as crisp as at first glance, though still quite good by the standards of this area, and possibly inspired from elsewhere.

Lew · 3rd July 2006, 05:29 PM

Jim

I think that four pointed symbol represents the battle of Omdurman 1898. I have seen this on a few period daggers that were dated 1899 and 1900 in Arabic. This is just my theory. Here is an interesting fact He was devout, had flashing eyes, and possessed other marks of the Mahdi: a V-shaped aperture between his front two teeth, a birthmark on his right cheek, his ancestry, and his origin from the east. These were all seen as favorable signs that he was the true Mahdi. Notice those 4 symbols are V shaped? They could have some connection to Mad Madhi?

Lew

Lew · 17th August 2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Lew,

The four pronged geometric stamp at the forte is most interesting, any ideas on its meaning? Could it be makers mark/arsenal stamp?

Best regards,
jim

Jim

I have a friend who works at the Museum of Natural History and he says it is a representation of the battle of Omdurman. The British ranks were formed in a the shape of a square and were surrounded by the enemy fighters and stamp on the dagger is some type of commemoration of that battle.

Lew

derek · 20th August 2006, 03:50 AM

Totally gratuitous to add this, but it's one of my favorites, and I've never seen any others so close to it.
-d

Lew · 20th August 2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Totally gratuitous to add this, but it's one of my favorites, and I've never seen any others so close to it.
-d

Derek

Yes that dagger has the most lovely fuller work I have seen and would look wonderful hanging next to this one

Lew

2nd July 2006, 02:16 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nubian? dagger Just ended and congratulation to Charles! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Ain't no Nubian! Persian, 1175 H, or 1761 Gregorian. Very nice blade, especially the base cartouche part. Pity the scabbard was lost. I am wondering whether my impression of a very thin and flat blade is correct? I would also guess the handle is a replacement: plain bone and pretty rough; does not fit with the elaborate blade. The original must have been more sumptuous.

2nd July 2006, 03:07 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ariel I think that the blade could be original to the hilt. It's good quality blade and my guess is that it was made in Khartoum. Sorry Ariel the blade quality does not say Persian to me it's a little ruff looking it may be a copy of a Persian blade? Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 2nd July 2006 at 03:19 PM.

2nd July 2006, 06:21 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality. This one is, IMHO, far more sophisticated. As to the handle, here is one from "Orez Perski", same configuration. Marked as Qaddara, Persian, 18th century. And I also disagree about the age: this one still has file marks all over the bone. They would have been long polished off after 250 years. Not a single crack? Not a damaged corner? Not a spot of discoloration? How often do you see such a pristine bone/ivory handle on a 250 yo dagger? Attached Images

2nd July 2006, 10:35 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=ariel]I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality. Ariel There happens to have been some exceptional Sudanese pieces made for the wealthier class back in the late 1800s. This one is from Artzi's website. Notice the similarity in the blade shape and grind lines they are nearly identical. This dagger is as far from primitive as it gets. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd July 2006 at 02:58 AM.

3rd July 2006, 05:29 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim I think that four pointed symbol represents the battle of Omdurman 1898. I have seen this on a few period daggers that were dated 1899 and 1900 in Arabic. This is just my theory. Here is an interesting fact He was devout, had flashing eyes, and possessed other marks of the Mahdi: a V-shaped aperture between his front two teeth, a birthmark on his right cheek, his ancestry, and his origin from the east. These were all seen as favorable signs that he was the true Mahdi. Notice those 4 symbols are V shaped? They could have some connection to Mad Madhi? Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd July 2006 at 05:49 PM.

2nd July 2006, 03:01 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I think sudanese. The hiklt is typical. The blade is very nice, but still has an overall sudanese apparence... If in fact sudanese, is it the best I've seen. Could be persian as sensei said, but rehilted long ago in Sudan. Nice value for the money!!!

2nd July 2006, 09:44 PM	#5
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! In my opinion the hilt is almost certainly Sudanese, the shape and material used is Sudanese, and the use of a dark bone/horn end cap I have seen on several Sudanese daggers. The blade is the nicest I have seen on daggers similer to it. And the etching near the back of the blade where the writing is is very much like the type on my dagger but is a desigen instead of a verse from the Koran. For beoing as old as it is it is in very good condition. Mark... Here's a link to a similer one I have but of less quality blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sudanese

2nd July 2006, 10:33 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=ariel]I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a Sudanese blade of even minimally better-than-primitive quality. Ariel There happens to have been some exceptional Sudanese pieces made for the weathier class back in the late 1800s. This one is from Artzi's website. Notice the similarity in the blade shape.

3rd July 2006, 12:27 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Lew, Thanks for posting the fantastic Sudanese dagger!!! Artzi definitely has a knack for presenting outstanding items. The four pronged geometric stamp at the forte is most interesting, any ideas on its meaning? Could it be makers mark/arsenal stamp? The silverwork seems consistant with kaskara mountings found in Darfur, would this be considered a Fur weapon? Best regards, jim

3rd July 2006, 04:26 AM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Sight yet unseen, I am convinced that this is Sudanese. Both the blade and the hilt seem so to me. If you look at the pics with close ups of the blade, you will see the blade is not as crisp as at first glance, though still quite good by the standards of this area, and possibly inspired from elsewhere.

20th August 2006, 03:50 AM	#13
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Totally gratuitous to add this, but it's one of my favorites, and I've never seen any others so close to it. -d Attached Images