Indonesian sword?

[JeffS]

Does anyone recognize this style of sword? It originally had hair from pommel and foot of scabbard. It has an Indonesian feel to me.

[JeffS]

Any thoughts?

[A. G. Maisey]

Jeff, this sort of stuff is a bit outside my area of interest, but I have seen similar edged weapons to this that were attributed to Sumatera, Aceh.

[Sajen]

I've never seen something similar, sorry!

[A. G. Maisey]

I said "similar" Detlef, I did not say "the same".

I reckon that you & a lot of other people too might have seen swords & daggers & knives that bear design characteristics and geometry that would fit into the parameters that this sword of Jeff's carries. This is clearly not a major item, it looks like rural workmanship, and as we move away from major centers of influence the easy to ID characteristics soften & blend with the ideas of people who only have perhaps vague memories or stumbling descriptions to work on.

When looking at older items from SE Asia we need to remember things like the travellers' tales of attempting to cross Sumatera by motorbike during the not so distant past, like into the 1950's. A lot of what we take for granted now was very different not long ago. Even places like Bali were very, very different in the 1960's & 1970's. I had personal experience of both rural Jawa & South Bali long before the tourist flood. I'm reading a book at the moment that was written by a long-time Australian resident of Bali, a famous landscape architect, where he regards 1985 as the year when old Bali changed, I personally regard 1982 as the last good year for Bali, and in 1982 it was a lot different to what it was in 1966-7.

In the markets in Bali now we can see the current interpretations of designs from the past, put a 2023 work-knife side by side with a 1970 work knife and a cursory glance will cause one to form the opinion that these two knives are from different places, but spend the time to look closely at design geometry & we will find the same salient features.

[Jerseyman]

I'm no expert, but this feels Nias to me. I had a quick flick through Albert's lastest book (Traditionele Wapens van Nias - Zonneveld) and Type 10 on page 160 has some similarities - enough to perhaps merit consideration.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think this Nias example does qualify as "similar" , slight differences, not the same, but to my eye certainly similar.

Nias is located in the Province of North Sumatera.

[JeffS]

I really appreciate the discussion. The Nias vibe originally caught my eye and curiosity. However there were hair plugs (since broken off) which is reminiscent of Timor area or Borneo. If I had to choose between the two, Timor. I also understand hair was often added for tourist appeal. The blade quality is decent but overall primitive as noted. The interlocking hilt and scabbard throat is pleasing and well executed.

[Albert]

I don't recognize any similarities with Nias swords.
Although the blade looks similar to the sword in the picture in my book, it is a very common shape found in many areas.
The hilt and sheath provide no clues to Nias.

[A. G. Maisey]

Albert, I have already stated that this sort of thing is out of my area of interest. On the other hand , it is absolutely within your area of interest.

On this matter, you undoubtedly understand more than I do.

Additionally, my guess at "Sumatera" was based upon 3 or perhaps 4 examples of similar swords that were in the hands of finders (runners, wholesale dealers)whom I had met in Solo & Bali, it was separate professional trade dealers who provided the "Sumatera" ID. These people were not natives of either Solo or Bali, but people whose job it was to search S.E. Asia and then sell to retail dealers.

So this present post is not an invitation to enter debate, all I wish to do is to state what I believe I can see. My guess has a qualifier, ie, "similar", meaning not quite the same, but having a broad, overall character that is almost the same.

There are two characteristics of Jeff's sword that are similar to characteristics of the swords that I have seen and that were identified as having a Sumatera origin, those two characteristics are the stylized ancestor head, forward canted pommel, and the blade form. As you yourself have commented, the blade form of both these swords bears similarities to other swords spread across a wide area.

Now, if i compare the picture of the sword of Nias origin that has been reproduced from your book, with Jeff's sword, I can again see a similar stylized ancestor head pommel, & both swords are similar to this characteristic in the swords I have previously seen.

The blades of the Nias sword & Jeff's sword are not really so close in similarity, but this difference could be due to repeated sharpening of Jeff's sword:- the Nias sword is forward weighted, other than this variation, I would consider both blades quite similar.

Another similarity between Jeff's sword, the Nias sword and the swords I have previously seen is scabbard design & construction.

I have no field experience in Sumatera, thus, based upon my own direct experience I am unable to identify origin of any of the swords I have mentioned, but using only visual comparison with photos on a computer screen & the information gained from professionals in this field of antique S.E. Asian edged weapons I do believe I can see sufficient similarity in the mentioned examples to to take a tentative guess at origin.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Albert

I don't recognize any similarities with Nias swords.
Although the blade looks similar to the sword in the picture in my book, it is a very common shape found in many areas.
Thank you Albert. The hilt and sheath provide no clues to Nias.

That helps to clear that up. Are hair plugs a clue along with other features for other possible origins? Small tufts from hilt and scabbard foot.

[Sajen]

Hello Jeff, can you show us the hilt with some close-ups?

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

A really interesting piece, Jeff!

From what I can see from the pics, it doesn't seem to have the vibes expected of pieces from Aceh and its backwaters; I can see where Alan is coming from though. Also the details of the hilt and the scabbard don't vibe with Nias as already suggested by Albert.

I'd guess we may have to look towards the eastern part of the island chain.

The blade has a fairly generic shape and seems to be village made as already suggested by Alan.

I agree with Detlef, that we need a close look on the wood carving and other details of the fittings: Could you please provide close-ups of the hilt from all 4 sides and its top? Please also post the corresponding 5 close-ups for the scabbard mouth as well as a pic of its very tip. Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kai, Aceh was a bad thought, obviously wrong. Shotgun approach.

I'm quite certain of the "Sumatera" nomination from these runners, people who did not know one another & who are professionals in their field, but the Aceh did not come from them, it was my shotgun.

Maybe Batak might be better?

I do not have many references on this sort of thing, a long time ago I had some mild interest in these various S.E. Asian sharp-pointy things, but that is ancient history, perhaps somebody might come up with some supportive evidence of somewhere.

I wonder if anybody here has read Centini? There is a passage in it where the chief characters are discussing keris, & one of them says something like "lets go to the market & learn about keris". As far as any sort of object of trade is concerned, it is the market-place that holds the answers, people who rely upon knowledge of what they sell in order to earn a living hold all the knowledge, everybody else is on the outside, just looking in through the occasional open window. If the pasar holds the knowledge, it is the finders who supply the pasar.

[JeffS]

Apologies for wasting people's time. When I went to clean it for detail photos I found that the upper handle/ferule is plastic (not horn as I thought) and that the black residue is not soot or dirt but some type of synthetic concoction. The blade is real but I think it is safe to assume the rest is fantasy. More tuition fees for me.

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a real disappointment for you Jeff, & I'm sorry to hear it.

Anyway, welcome to the club, we've all been shonked , its part of degree course.

However, when a piece of fakedakery like this appears on the scene, we usually have seen or will see others the same, or close to to it. Speaking for myself only, I have not seen a plastic hilt anything like this one of yours --- & I very regulary see a lot of various examples of fake antique weaponry.

[Ian]

Very sorry to hear that Jeff. As Alan says, we have all been there. I have a drawer of "shame" with the pieces acquired over the years that turned out to be fakes. Not many, but enough to hurt the pride. Hang in there. When you find a real "sleeper" it makes the world seem a whole lot brighter and collecting a lot of fun.

[werecow]

I like the term "oops box" that someone here coined. My oops box overfloweth.