I know my Pappenheims... - Page 2

shayde78 · 25th March 2020, 02:55 PM

I still don't see any markings on the unmounted blade. There may be some faint etchings under the oxidation, but I don't think so.

I've attached some side-by-side pics of the blade next to other items for comparison. The bottom is a small sword with rococo-style hilt that this forum estimated to be from around 1760, or so. The top is larger than a small sword that the forum estimated to be from early 1800s.

The tiles are each 12"x12", so the unmounted blade measures about 3 feet, 4 inches long. Another inch, or two might be presumed to have existed before the tip broke. That said, there is no unsharpened riccaso, so I suspect that limits the type of hilts that would have once been mounted. The tang meets the shoulder of the blade, and then it is sharpened almost directly past that juncture.

ulfberth · 25th March 2020, 05:12 PM

the blade is indeed to long for a small sword, it could very well be from a transitional rapier circa 1640 like the one in the picture from the Wallace Collection.
This type has no real ricasso like your's , I have a similar one in my collection its also a lot longer than a small sword. How wide is the blade at the widest point ? my blade is 2,2 cm wide and 104 long .

shayde78 · 26th March 2020, 03:56 AM

Great pictures. The one from your collection is a beauty!

The blade is 0.75inches (1.9 cm) wide at the shoulder with a steady taper down to the missing tip.

shayde78 · 26th March 2020, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff.
All others look good ... to me.

The more I think about it, the Tizona might be my favorite piece, in a way. I know it gave me pause that the whole lot were reproductions. I suspect that is why the only other bidder bowed out when they did. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that humble 'decoration'.

ulfberth · 26th March 2020, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Great pictures. The one from your collection is a beauty!

The blade is 0.75inches (1.9 cm) wide at the shoulder with a steady taper down to the missing tip.

so this is prossibly the blade of a transitional rapier

fernando · 26th March 2020, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

The more I think about it, the Tizona might be my favorite piece, in a way. I know it gave me pause that the whole lot were reproductions. I suspect that is why the only other bidder bowed out when they did. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that humble 'decoration'.

Some guys have all the luck

.

shayde78 · 29th March 2020, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

so this is prossibly the blade of a transitional rapier

I guess now I need to be on the lookout for a transitional guard and pommel

Seriously, if someone knows where to find them, please private message me.

shayde78 · 15th April 2020, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

I hope everyone is staying safe during their COVID lockdown. The question I asked in post #16 seems to have been lost as we moved on to discuss the name on the ricasso. Any insights into this treatment of the grip? I seem to see similar grip covering on other examples from the period and would love to know what it is, and if it might have been part of this weapon's functional life.

ulfberth · 15th April 2020, 07:31 PM

thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture.
It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life.
Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

shayde78 · 17th May 2020, 12:19 AM

Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more.
Hope you are all staying well!
-Rob

shayde78 · 1st April 2023, 07:14 PM

Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574

Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.

25th March 2020, 02:55 PM	#31
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	I still don't see any markings on the unmounted blade. There may be some faint etchings under the oxidation, but I don't think so. I've attached some side-by-side pics of the blade next to other items for comparison. The bottom is a small sword with rococo-style hilt that this forum estimated to be from around 1760, or so. The top is larger than a small sword that the forum estimated to be from early 1800s. The tiles are each 12"x12", so the unmounted blade measures about 3 feet, 4 inches long. Another inch, or two might be presumed to have existed before the tip broke. That said, there is no unsharpened riccaso, so I suspect that limits the type of hilts that would have once been mounted. The tang meets the shoulder of the blade, and then it is sharpened almost directly past that juncture. Attached Images

25th March 2020, 05:12 PM	#32
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	the blade is indeed to long for a small sword, it could very well be from a transitional rapier circa 1640 like the one in the picture from the Wallace Collection. This type has no real ricasso like your's , I have a similar one in my collection its also a lot longer than a small sword. How wide is the blade at the widest point ? my blade is 2,2 cm wide and 104 long . Attached Images Last edited by ulfberth; 25th March 2020 at 05:31 PM.

26th March 2020, 03:56 AM	#33
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Great pictures. The one from your collection is a beauty! The blade is 0.75inches (1.9 cm) wide at the shoulder with a steady taper down to the missing tip.

15th April 2020, 07:31 PM	#39
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture. It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life. Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

17th May 2020, 12:19 AM	#40
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more. Hope you are all staying well! -Rob

1st April 2023, 07:14 PM	#41
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574 Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.