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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
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I picked this up recently , i thought it looked like an unusual hilt for a keris , though i could be wrong ,
the hilt i think is made from bone. whats your thoughts on it ? the blade is 32 cm long total length 43 cm |
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#2 |
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Moro hilt and Indonesian blade?
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
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Hi yes that was my thought a moro hilt on a indonesian blade , but when you see the hilt its very small and surely would be too small for a moro kris , im stumped
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#4 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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Well, it is most certainly a Moro hilt on an Indonesian blade. I can't say that this stumps me. The small size of the hilt is not that unusual. Especially some older Moro kris tended to be smaller and then there is also the possibility that the hilt came from a child's kris. How and when they came together is anybody's guess though.
BTW, i am not convinced that the pommel is bone. Would need to see better photos and/or handle it, but it could be ivory. |
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#5 |
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Hi david , im no expert but i guessed it must be a moro hilt though very small, i have added some more pics of the hilt and as you can see the pommel can be removed , im not sure if its ivory or not ?
i have taken a picture of it against what is allready a small moro hilt to give it some perspective |
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#6 |
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No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.
Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used. |
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#7 |
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This is definitely a Moro, possibly Sulu, hilt.
Lots of trade between the Indonesian and Philippine archipelagos. I have seen Indonesian kerises owned by Moro datus. There are many Moro kris hilts and krises that were made for children of datus. Perhaps this hilt is one of them onto a traded keris as a gift. ![]() |
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#8 | |
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#9 | |
Keris forum moderator
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I am not aware that all ivory kris pommels were only for ceremonial weapons Bob. Certainly the more elaborate junggayan pommels on datu class kris didn't see much action, but the more simplified ivory kakatau pommels i think may well of graced the hilts of kris that saw more use. ![]() |
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#10 |
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Those lines that are present on the sides of this material look a lot like the lines that we see on cow/buffalo/sheep horn. I think we can rule out sheep, but how about white water buffalo (kerbau) horn?
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#11 |
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Hello Alan,
No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone... Regards, Kai |
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#12 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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The purchase and sale of antique marine ivory (for scrimshaw) is still legal in Massachusetts where I live.
I've seen my fair share of examples close up and that really looks like marine ivory to me. ![]() Possibly Dugong. |
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#13 |
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Hello Rick,
I would not want to exclude tooth/ivory for the pommel; however the craftsmanship is unusual, especially the rather rough finish. From the dimensions, this is unlikely to be dugong; spermwhale is much more common in these waters/cultures (as is use of elephant sources). Regards, Kai |
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#14 |
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As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong.
So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory. As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one. ![]() |
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#15 |
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You're probably right Kai, but I've only ever seen lines like that in horn. Sheep horn is very translucent, ordinary cows horn varies, as does kerbau horn.
In fact, as Rick has said, it looks like marine ivory, but I've handled a lot of marine ivory and never seen those "layer lines". |
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#16 |
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I think Rick is correct. Marine ivory of some sort--walrus, whale, dugong, hippo, ... The "layered" appearance is very marked on hippo ivory and might fit the appearance here. As others have already noted, not a high degree of craftsmanship in the carving, so probably not derived from an exotic/rare/precious source.
Ian |
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#17 |
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I think I see a core showing on the underside of the beak.
Need a better picture or better photoshop skills than mine. ![]() Beside it is a picture of the core in the pommel of the avatar Kris that some of you use here. Last edited by Rick; 21st August 2019 at 01:17 AM. |
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#18 |
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Please see this hilt made from marine ivory and which has many "layer lines".
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#19 |
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Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why?
I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it? |
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#20 | |
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Regards |
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#21 |
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Thanks for all your input here , ive taken a couple more pics , im no expert but i dont think its bone , ive owned fijian whale tooth necklace (tabua) and the composition is more like this than bone
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#22 |
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Inconclusive as far as that hole being a natural feature of the material.
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#23 |
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I think Jean's example is most likely hippo ivory. See here for some pics of hippo ivory that show similar patterns.
A quick search for "keris" and "hippo ivory" produced an item currently for sale in The Netherlands. I won't post the link for obvious reasons. But the description included an interesting claim about Bugis trade with Africa: The Buginese type keris is one of the oldest known in Indonesia, The hippo ivory hilts were imported by Buginese sailors in Africa before the 15th century as described in Robert Dick Read’s Penjelajah Bahari. Last edited by Ian; 22nd August 2019 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Added quote |
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