Seeking advice

[Anthony G.]

This is my new commissioned Balinese keris. I would like to seek comment, should gold plating be done on the motif or it should be left as it was in current state.

My impression was Balinese keris are always 'colorful'. I would like to try to stick to the tradition and originality if possible.

Thank you.

[kai]

Hello Anthony,

I can see no reason why not to put gold on that singa...

Make sure that all rust gets removed first though. Please post better pics once you receive this keris!

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Yes, strange to see what appears to be rust already setting in on this brand new blade. I agree with Kai. As a newly commissioned blade i think it is certainly your prerogative to add kinatah to this blade. But definitely be sure the rust is completely removed first. Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

[kai]

Hello David,

Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

The gonjo seems to accept the warangan better than the blade. It already seems to be a bit on the dull side, too.

If it were mine, I'd request:
(0. Finishing the scabbard first; )
1. A complete and thorough cleaning of the blade (with removing all rust and staining);
2. A thorough polishing job on the blade;
3. Verifying the blade;
4. Applying the kinatah;
5. Another approval step;
6. Warangan done quickly (not by soaking the blade) - actually, I'd prefer to do this myself;
7. Neutralizing and thoroughly drying the blade;
8. Amply oiling and wrapping the blade;
9. Checking pics again (and shipping all pieces unmounted).

I reckon such a procedure may be difficult to follow for many artisans though...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, have you ever considered taking six or twelve months off from work and finding a mentor in Central Jawa?

I feel you might benefit greatly from this.

Or even in Australia.

I have been involved in several different types of custom made, bespoke items, both as producer & as client, and the people I have known who worked in these fields would simply refuse to accept a commission from any prospective client who placed such stipulations upon them.

It might have been OK in the past to be the master of the craftsman, I doubt that this is so these days. Even in a craft where it might reasonably be expected. Like tailoring.

I ordered a tailor made suit when I was 21. I went to a tailor who was regognised for quality work, there were interminable fittings, and it was finally delivered. It really looked great, and improved the way I looked by about 500%

It was probably 20 years before I ordered another tailor made suit, and the process for that was very much abbreviated.

The last tailor-made suit I ordered was in about 1990. A tailor came to Sydney from Hong Kong, took my measurements and took those measurements home to HK. I got one fitting, about a month later, adjustments were made, the suit was delivered in about another two weeks.

It was OK, not great, but nothing that could really be complained about.

Why did I order from HK?

Well I could only find one tailor in Sydney whose work I liked, and he had a six month waiting list, and in any case, I would much have preferred a new motor vehicle to a new suit. He was just a bit too expensive for me.

These days it seems to me that everybody who carries out work for somebody else does so on their own terms. The days when we could even tell a plumber what we wanted done and how are long gone. Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.

But specifically related to keris.

All the Javanese craftsmen I know regard any criticism at all of their work as being close to personal insult. They can react in a number of ways, but the end result is usually that if they do anything at all, it will not improve the item, but rather detract from it. What we do here is to either accept or reject the work. If we reject and have already paid a deposit, it is very unlikely we will ever see that deposit again, so we accept the item no matter what. If it is fixable we give it to somebody else to fix, and this could take a number of people and a number of tries. If it is not fixable, we just on-sell it.

We do not ever try to tell the craftsman where his work is defective and how we want it fixed.

But if Anthony is working through an agent, his path might be marginally easier, if his agent is cooperative and wants return orders.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Anthony,

I can see no reason why not to put gold on that singa...

Make sure that all rust gets removed first though. Please post better pics once you receive this keris!

Regards,
Kai

I am not sure as I saw most Balinese keris with kinatah is actually more colorful and has floral motif around it. This keris only has a motif. I saw most motif only keris of Balinese tradition is not coated with gold.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, strange to see what appears to be rust already setting in on this brand new blade. I agree with Kai. As a newly commissioned blade i think it is certainly your prerogative to add kinatah to this blade. But definitely be sure the rust is completely removed first. Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

Hi David

Thanks for advice, i almost overlooked on that part about rust and mention it is not final product.

This is not the final bilah condition i assume but i will ask. Currently it is sent to get warangka made and also a Balinese painter needs to paint on the scabbard etc.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These days it seems to me that everybody who carries out work for somebody else does so on their own terms. The days when we could even tell a plumber what we wanted done and how are long gone. Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.

But specifically related to keris.

All the Javanese craftsmen I know regard any criticism at all of their work as being close to personal insult. They can react in a number of ways, but the end result is usually that if they do anything at all, it will not improve the item, but rather detract from it. What we do here is to either accept or reject the work. If we reject and have already paid a deposit, it is very unlikely we will ever see that deposit again, so we accept the item no matter what. If it is fixable we give it to somebody else to fix, and this could take a number of people and a number of tries. If it is not fixable, we just on-sell it.

We do not ever try to tell the craftsman where his work is defective and how we want it fixed.

But if Anthony is working through an agent, his path might be marginally easier, if his agent is cooperative and wants return orders.

I love Alan's quote and it is funny but is true.

//quote//Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.//quote//


This is same for computing/programming projects and that is why 90% of system development projects always failed. .

As for keris, I think for art craving etc, it is too challenging for keris making as it is not machine mould/cast etc but hand made. It depends on the craftsmen seniority and experience and even experts 'fails' sometime.

For this Balinese keris, I gave the drawing to the craftsman thru agent and keep my finger cross. The actual product is far from the drawing but it turns up to be excellent, nonetheless. I accepted it happily.

I can 'feel' this Balinese cultural keris and feel none for the other Madura made keris which is a fine art but 'no feeling'.

[David]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

I can 'feel' this Balinese cultural keris and feel none for the other Madura made keris which is a fine art but 'no feeling'.

I find this interesting Anthony. I can't say that i have every been able to "feel" a keris based solely upon a photograph of it. An enviable skill.
I would also point out that these days i believe there are many contemporary keris being made in Jawa as well as Madura. I assume by your comments that what you "feel" from this keris has less to do with the geographic area that the keris was forged and more to do with the assurance you received that your keris was created the "old fashion" way involving prayer, fasting and ritual to create a "living" keris.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

I find this interesting Anthony. I can't say that i have every been able to "feel" a keris based solely upon a photograph of it. An enviable skill.
I would also point out that these days i believe there are many contemporary keris being made in Jawa as well as Madura. I assume by your comments that what you "feel" from this keris has less to do with the geographic area that the keris was forged and more to do with the assurance you received that your keris was created the "old fashion" way involving prayer, fasting and ritual to create a "living" keris.

Hi David,

To clarify further, yes; I have asked for photo to view the rituals performed on the keris prior making etc. It is done by an old Pande with another craftsman doing the craving of the motif only as apparently the old Pande does not do craving.

[Anthony G.]

for viewing enjoyment. Sunggingan Warangka to goes with the Balinese bilah.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

I am not sure as I saw most Balinese keris with kinatah is actually more colorful and has floral motif around it. This keris only has a motif. I saw most motif only keris of Balinese tradition is not coated with gold.

Thanks GOD that I decide not to put GOLD plating in the first place orelse it will covers the beauty. I left it as it was and it is awesome.

[Sajen]

Indeed very nice!

[David]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Thanks GOD that I decide not to put GOLD plating in the first place orelse it will covers the beauty. I left it as it was and it is awesome.

I agree Anthony. The pamor looks beautiful within the winged singo. It would be a shame to cover it up, even with gold.

[Rick]

I love how the pamor makes the wings on the beast look feathery.
Also the eye seems to be looking at the viewer on this side of the sorsoran. Can we see the other side of the blade?

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Rick

I love how the pamor makes the wings on the beast look feathery.
Also the eye seems to be looking at the viewer on this side of the sorsoran. Can we see the other side of the blade?

Here you go.

[Rick]

Just as nice as the other side.

[Gustav]

Yes, because it's the same side.

[Jean]

Gustav seems to be right (inverted picture?) as the raised front leg appears on the front on both pics.
I wonder whether the Singa was welded as there seems to be no slorok on the front side.
Regards

[Rick]

I've been snookered.

[David]

Yep, i was just gonna say. What's up with that Anthony?

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Yep, i was just gonna say. What's up with that Anthony?

COuld be I upload wrong photo? I reload again. Please takes a look.

[Jean]

These 2 photos correctly show both sides of the blade, thanks. What about the Singa figure, is it welded onto the sorsoran or carved from the blade?
For determining it, you can check if there is evidence of a slorok (steel edge) on the front side of the Singa or not. Beautiful art work anyway.
Thank you Gustav for your sharp eye!
Regards

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Jean

These 2 photos correctly show both sides of the blade, thanks. What about the Singa figure, is it welded onto the sorsoran or carved from the blade?
For determining it, you can check if there is evidence of a slorok (steel edge) on the front side of the Singa or not. Beautiful art work anyway.
Thank you Gustav for your sharp eye!
Regards

The motif was craved from the bilah.