Manchu quiver

Ole S · 9th January 2019, 04:18 PM

Hi everybody
Need your help with this one: A short quiver with its belt, which I believe may be Manchu-Chinese from 19th century with some Tibetan influence (the cross straps on the front). It has bronze fittings and leather cover. Samples with pierced gilded fittings and velvet cover are often described as being used by the Imperial Guard in Beijing. What do you think, who may have used it, where, and when?
Are you aware of any pictures/paintings/lithographs etc of Chinese soldiers from the 19th century that use this type of quiver? I have only found a painting of Prince Yunli bye Giuseppe Castiglione from about 1730, and that is about 100 years too early, I guess.
Looking forward to your comments,
Best
Ole S

kai · 10th January 2019, 11:50 PM

Hello Ole,

This is way out of my comfort zone - I believe, you need to discuss this with Peter Dekker...

Regards,
Kai

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2019, 12:05 AM

Ole, I very much agree with Kai...……….Peter Dekker would be a great source for information as the Qing dynasty is his forte'.
The picture you have is actually wonderfully telling, and a century is virtually nothing as far as the context of these items, the same styles of course remained in place for many centuries.
If I recall, Qing forces in frontier regions near Tibet often received weaponry and items from Tibetan artisans in a kind of tribute that was afforded periodically. This accounted for much of the cross influence and diffusion in what were regarded as 'border' examples by some collectors.

A great book "Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms & Armor of Tibet", Donoald LaRocca, 2006 would be a great resource for information on the motif.

The picture more 19th century Manchu (Qing) horseman but unfortunately cannot see quiver.

Great acquisition!!!!

Ole S · 13th January 2019, 10:32 PM

Thanks a lot for the kind replys. Peter Dekker would know!

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2019, 04:34 AM

While apparently the reference to Peter Dekker was well placed and seems to have satisfied the OP, as the thread has stopped here, but I wanted to add some information for those readers who might have interest in knowing more on this topic. Indeed, Peter Dekker is an outstanding reference as what I was able to find was from his work, and I will try to add a synopsis here.

This very interesting quiver is as noted, a Manchu form, but distinctly with Tibetan influence. According to LaRocca (2006, p.172) this crossed strap form quiver was earliest known as Tibetan/Mongolian of 15th-17th c. Mongolia had profound presence in Tibet until 1720s when driven out with Qing assistance.
(to clarify Qing and Manchu refer to the same dynasty).

The Qianlong Emperor (1736-96) of the Qing dynasty was apparently a devout Tibetan Buddist, and was profoundly influenced by Tibetan arms forms, often having his forces using weapons with this influence. It appears these style quivers were of a form used by his bodyguards and probably in the famed troops known as Bannermen.
As I understand some of the devices seen on this example, the 'vase' with halberds indicates a level of high rank, three the highest attainable.
The 'five bats' represent the five blessings.

These Manchu style arms were likely continued with the succeeding Jiaqing emperor (r. 1796-1820) and Daoguang emperor (1820-1850).

While this example quiver appears to be with the potential for courtly use with the Emperors guards, it seems possible that similar types might have been used by other elite Manchu forces.
As I had mentioned there were Manchu garrisons in border regions of China adjacent to Tibet; Sichuan, Yunnan and Qinghai during the 18th c.

I hope this might simply add some information to this thread before it goes into the archives.

Peter Dekker · 21st January 2019, 12:44 PM

Hi guys! Thanks for the endorsements.

This is a very interesting quiver. It is of a type worn primarily in the capital for court assemblies. Imperial guards had several sets, with a different color for each occasion. These imperial guard bow cases and quivers all had gilt mounts, and the piece was either black leather or a color of silk velvet.

The tooled leather and brass mounts on this set indicate it was not an imperial guardsman's quiver, but a soldier's piece. But not just any soldier had quivers quite this fancy, he must have been among the troops that participated in military parades.

The decor is interesting in that it diverges from the norm somewhat. Most imperial guard and soldier's quivers of this type have exactly the same mounts, with the difference that the imperial guard pieces have gilt mounts. I've found the exact same imperfections on many of them, indicating they were all from the same mold.

This piece is decorated not with the usual design of dragons among pierced work, but with archaic kui dragons that were inspired on the work on ancient Chinese bronze vessels that were popular among the elites. Many late Qing saber mounts and belt hooks were decorated in exactly this manner, but it's the first time I see it on a quiver like this.

Great piece, also nice to see the belt is en suite.

As for the cross straps, they are first seen on Persian quivers and probably made their way to Tibet and Mongolia through the silk road / Mongol expansion. Qianlong probably was inspired by the Tibetans, as the guards on some instances also wore Tibetan style swords.

Peter

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 06:38 PM

Peter, the endorsements are very well deserved!!! and I am glad to be able to thank you personally for the profound knowledge and insight into the arms of the Manchu and the key history you have openly shared online. Your work has been the main resource I have used, and very much appreciated.

I honestly had not known these details about the QianLong Emperor, who seems to have had keen interest and innovations in the styles of weaponry used by his forces. Thank you for coming in on this and adding these wonderful details

.

All very best regards
Jim

Ole S · 22nd January 2019, 10:43 AM

Peter,
Thanks a lot for your very insightful and helpful comments.
And thanks to Jim too for caring so much about the threads being useful for all of us.
Kind regards
Ole

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd January 2019, 11:44 AM

Details on such weapons are well noted on the Web mainly by Peter Dekker who has spearheaded research and information on this hitherto poorly covered subject. Now it is superb.
see fe doro Manchu archery at http://www.manchuarchery.org/articles-manchu-archery

Peter Dekker · 22nd January 2019, 04:26 PM

Thanks for the warming words! For years I put my heart and soul into that website.

I've been too busy to continue the work since I'm now trading antique arms full time, but there are many more articles I want to do for the site. I'm sure I will get back on it at some point. It's nice to hear it's appreciated. Writing the articles was also a great way for myself to arrange the info I had found, and test my theories. Through it, I made a lot of valuable contacts who helped me advance my understanding of the Manchus.

As for Qianlong, yes he was quite a workaholic and got himself involved in the most minute details when it came to state affairs. His involvement in arms manufacture, both practical and stylistic seems to have increased in 1748. In this year, Qianlong lost the love of his life, Xiaoxianchun, something he would emotionally never overcome.

He was always a hard worker but it seems he immersed himself in more work ever since she passed, redesigning ceremonial regalia but also re-thinking strategies in war and founding the elite force Jianruiying. All started right after she passed in 1748.

He was a Tibetan Buddhist himself, which explains the strong Tibetan influence he put into the design of auspicious ceremony regalia. This could be seen as a smart political choice as Tibetan Buddhism was the main religion of many Manchus and his most powerful Tibetan and Mongol allies. But when warlords opened his tomb in 1928, they found Qianlong next to Xiaoxianchun in a tomb covered entirely with Tibetan Buddhist scriptures, indicating his devotion wasn't just for the outside world.

9th January 2019, 04:18 PM	#1
Ole S Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 7	Manchu quiver Hi everybody Need your help with this one: A short quiver with its belt, which I believe may be Manchu-Chinese from 19th century with some Tibetan influence (the cross straps on the front). It has bronze fittings and leather cover. Samples with pierced gilded fittings and velvet cover are often described as being used by the Imperial Guard in Beijing. What do you think, who may have used it, where, and when? Are you aware of any pictures/paintings/lithographs etc of Chinese soldiers from the 19th century that use this type of quiver? I have only found a painting of Prince Yunli bye Giuseppe Castiglione from about 1730, and that is about 100 years too early, I guess. Looking forward to your comments, Best Ole S Attached Images

11th January 2019, 12:05 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,970	Ole, I very much agree with Kai...……….Peter Dekker would be a great source for information as the Qing dynasty is his forte'. The picture you have is actually wonderfully telling, and a century is virtually nothing as far as the context of these items, the same styles of course remained in place for many centuries. If I recall, Qing forces in frontier regions near Tibet often received weaponry and items from Tibetan artisans in a kind of tribute that was afforded periodically. This accounted for much of the cross influence and diffusion in what were regarded as 'border' examples by some collectors. A great book "Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms & Armor of Tibet", Donoald LaRocca, 2006 would be a great resource for information on the motif. The picture more 19th century Manchu (Qing) horseman but unfortunately cannot see quiver. Great acquisition!!!! Attached Images

10th January 2019, 11:50 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ole, This is way out of my comfort zone - I believe, you need to discuss this with Peter Dekker... Regards, Kai

13th January 2019, 10:32 PM	#4
Ole S Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 7	Thanks a lot for the kind replys. Peter Dekker would know!

20th January 2019, 04:34 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,970	While apparently the reference to Peter Dekker was well placed and seems to have satisfied the OP, as the thread has stopped here, but I wanted to add some information for those readers who might have interest in knowing more on this topic. Indeed, Peter Dekker is an outstanding reference as what I was able to find was from his work, and I will try to add a synopsis here. This very interesting quiver is as noted, a Manchu form, but distinctly with Tibetan influence. According to LaRocca (2006, p.172) this crossed strap form quiver was earliest known as Tibetan/Mongolian of 15th-17th c. Mongolia had profound presence in Tibet until 1720s when driven out with Qing assistance. (to clarify Qing and Manchu refer to the same dynasty). The Qianlong Emperor (1736-96) of the Qing dynasty was apparently a devout Tibetan Buddist, and was profoundly influenced by Tibetan arms forms, often having his forces using weapons with this influence. It appears these style quivers were of a form used by his bodyguards and probably in the famed troops known as Bannermen. As I understand some of the devices seen on this example, the 'vase' with halberds indicates a level of high rank, three the highest attainable. The 'five bats' represent the five blessings. These Manchu style arms were likely continued with the succeeding Jiaqing emperor (r. 1796-1820) and Daoguang emperor (1820-1850). While this example quiver appears to be with the potential for courtly use with the Emperors guards, it seems possible that similar types might have been used by other elite Manchu forces. As I had mentioned there were Manchu garrisons in border regions of China adjacent to Tibet; Sichuan, Yunnan and Qinghai during the 18th c. I hope this might simply add some information to this thread before it goes into the archives.

21st January 2019, 12:44 PM	#6
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Hi guys! Thanks for the endorsements. This is a very interesting quiver. It is of a type worn primarily in the capital for court assemblies. Imperial guards had several sets, with a different color for each occasion. These imperial guard bow cases and quivers all had gilt mounts, and the piece was either black leather or a color of silk velvet. The tooled leather and brass mounts on this set indicate it was not an imperial guardsman's quiver, but a soldier's piece. But not just any soldier had quivers quite this fancy, he must have been among the troops that participated in military parades. The decor is interesting in that it diverges from the norm somewhat. Most imperial guard and soldier's quivers of this type have exactly the same mounts, with the difference that the imperial guard pieces have gilt mounts. I've found the exact same imperfections on many of them, indicating they were all from the same mold. This piece is decorated not with the usual design of dragons among pierced work, but with archaic kui dragons that were inspired on the work on ancient Chinese bronze vessels that were popular among the elites. Many late Qing saber mounts and belt hooks were decorated in exactly this manner, but it's the first time I see it on a quiver like this. Great piece, also nice to see the belt is en suite. As for the cross straps, they are first seen on Persian quivers and probably made their way to Tibet and Mongolia through the silk road / Mongol expansion. Qianlong probably was inspired by the Tibetans, as the guards on some instances also wore Tibetan style swords. Peter

21st January 2019, 06:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,970	Peter, the endorsements are very well deserved!!! and I am glad to be able to thank you personally for the profound knowledge and insight into the arms of the Manchu and the key history you have openly shared online. Your work has been the main resource I have used, and very much appreciated. I honestly had not known these details about the QianLong Emperor, who seems to have had keen interest and innovations in the styles of weaponry used by his forces. Thank you for coming in on this and adding these wonderful details . All very best regards Jim

22nd January 2019, 10:43 AM	#8
Ole S Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 7	Peter, Thanks a lot for your very insightful and helpful comments. And thanks to Jim too for caring so much about the threads being useful for all of us. Kind regards Ole

22nd January 2019, 11:44 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Details on such weapons are well noted on the Web mainly by Peter Dekker who has spearheaded research and information on this hitherto poorly covered subject. Now it is superb. see fe doro Manchu archery at http://www.manchuarchery.org/articles-manchu-archery

22nd January 2019, 04:26 PM	#10
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Thanks for the warming words! For years I put my heart and soul into that website. I've been too busy to continue the work since I'm now trading antique arms full time, but there are many more articles I want to do for the site. I'm sure I will get back on it at some point. It's nice to hear it's appreciated. Writing the articles was also a great way for myself to arrange the info I had found, and test my theories. Through it, I made a lot of valuable contacts who helped me advance my understanding of the Manchus. As for Qianlong, yes he was quite a workaholic and got himself involved in the most minute details when it came to state affairs. His involvement in arms manufacture, both practical and stylistic seems to have increased in 1748. In this year, Qianlong lost the love of his life, Xiaoxianchun, something he would emotionally never overcome. He was always a hard worker but it seems he immersed himself in more work ever since she passed, redesigning ceremonial regalia but also re-thinking strategies in war and founding the elite force Jianruiying. All started right after she passed in 1748. He was a Tibetan Buddhist himself, which explains the strong Tibetan influence he put into the design of auspicious ceremony regalia. This could be seen as a smart political choice as Tibetan Buddhism was the main religion of many Manchus and his most powerful Tibetan and Mongol allies. But when warlords opened his tomb in 1928, they found Qianlong next to Xiaoxianchun in a tomb covered entirely with Tibetan Buddhist scriptures, indicating his devotion wasn't just for the outside world.