Karud: the weapon that did not exist:-)

[Ian]

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

P.Holstein, "Contribution A L’Etude des Armes Orientales", 1931. Vol. II, plate XX, the author shows both pesh kabz and karud daggers.

Well Eric
Holstein speaks only of pesh kabz...
The text under the picture is not from Holstein...
Nevertheless I share your general opinion.
Best,
Kubur

[ariel]

Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)


Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?

And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".

Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)

Ariel, please stop trying to speak for everyone here, I am not trying to convince anyone here of anything, I am showing examples from a variety of sources where the different terms came from, who said what and when. If you have seen it all then just dont look, other people now and in the future may not have seen them.

Originally Posted by ariel

Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?

Ariel, that is my PERSONAL interpretation, no more fabricated than any other, including your suggestions that we fabricate a completely new history by pretending that the work "karud" does not exist. In my opinion it is you that is recommending the use of false facts.

Originally Posted by ariel

And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".

In fact Ariel, we already have an accepted term for the "straight bladed pesh-kabz"....it is "karud". It is my right to disagree with you, and what exactly is your new correct term???

Originally Posted by ariel

Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?

Ariel what I have agreed with is that the known history of these terms absolutely should be brought up in academic publications and but that they should still be used.....you have and still do insist that the word "karud" should be stricken from academic publications.....two completely different and opposed thoughts.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ian

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Ian, I have not disagreed with Ariels thoughts on the subject except for his suggestion that the word "karud" no longer be used.....as we can all see there has been over time a progression as far as terms go. First there were general terms, then over time people struggled to categorize the many different forms into more identifiable categories based of certain features, either by blade, or hilt, overall shape etc.

For example, some sources mention the pesh kabz as only being straight bladed, with no mention of a curved blade, others take a completely different route and they lump the curved bladed and straight bladed together, while some people call the curved bladed type a pesh kabz and the straight bladed ones as karud.

There are no real rules, its good to have as much of the existing data available in one place and for people to make up their own minds based on how they see things.

Originally Posted by Ian

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.

Now this would be an interesting new discussion.

[estcrh]

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

In keeping with the intention that this publication should be intelligible to the general reader as well as the specialist, foreign terms have been kept to a minimum.

[ariel]

OK Eric , you won.

"Don't worry, be happy" :-)

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.

The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????

What is written in the descriptions of museums it is only for curious visitors.
At the forum there is slang, in conversations of collectors and dealers, in the descriptions of museums and richly illustrated books there is slang too.
Nobody forbids us to know that water it is H2O, but we ask "water" when we thirsty. Do not read the descriptions in the museums and albums at all except for items outside your circle of interests ))

[kronckew]

this thread: time for the funeral i think....

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kronckew

this thread: time for the funeral i think....

No need for that, I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc. For those that are not interested there are other topics.

[David]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1PYp-fsZOA

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by estcrh

No need for that, I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc. For those that are not interested there are other topics.

the digressions tend to support my position, but...

ah, well, carry on if you enjoy it. i'm off, time to walk the dog...bye.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by estcrh

... I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc...

You are right Eric, no one complained; but it appears that now they do .

[Robert]

As this topic has grown stagnate and to keep it from once more going off track, I believe that it is now time to bring this discussion to a close. Possibly at a later date if there is renewed interest, I will be open to unlocking it on a trial basis.

Robert