wotsit (pioneer sword?)?

kronckew · 4th July 2017, 10:01 PM

picked this beasty up today from an auction over the weekend, appears to be a 'pioneer' sword, what looks like a british arrow mark on the blade. blade looks similar to that on an 1830 issue baker/pioneer sword, but with an unusual large tho well made wood grip with a brass guard, end pommel, and a cross checkered wood grip.

blade is 55 cm. long, 4.5 cm. wide at the guard, 6 mm. thick & distal tapered. the 20cm. 'yelman' is razor sharp, as is the blade almost to the guard. guard is 1.2cm. thick brass, carved to match the grip. pommel cap is held by 4 small brass screws with crossed heads. grip is 16cm. from guard to end of pommel. it's 4.2cm dia. at the guard, getting larger near the pommel. the 'saw' part is VERY sharp and the teeth are 'set' properly like a real hand saw, not just notches. blade is pitted, but has been polished and no active rust present. weight sans scabbard is 820gm. no other mark than the one shown.

scabbard is wood, covered in what looks like vellum, or thin calfskin, light color, a bit grimey. very well done. brass chape is well made as well. small holes are on the spine near the mouth and further down where suspension ring mounts would once have been.

so, wotsit? i initially thought it was a hunting sword variant of some sort, when i bid on it online, but this is more beefy than most. smaller photos were from dealer's online catalogue.

thanks in advance for any help or light shed on this item.

Norman McCormick · 4th July 2017, 10:45 PM

Hi Wayne,
This thread may interest you particularly post no2 and the marks on the blade http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ifles-Regiment It is the only blade profile I think that fits yours. I have an 1856 Pattern Pioneers sword and the profile is different.
Regards,
Norman.

kronckew · 4th July 2017, 11:01 PM

the blade and marks fit, appears to have been repurposed, re-hilted and used in a later conflict. ww1 maybe? dad's army?

RobertGuy · 5th July 2017, 12:09 AM

Probably a private conversion rather than military. The facing arrow marks denote ''sold out of service''.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th July 2017, 05:08 PM

It looks like a Martini Bayonet ... The British 1879 Sawback Bayonet with a reworked hilt Or an AC bayonet converted from P1859 Cutlass bayonet in 1878. Favoured in Irish circles and as an Engineers / Artillery weapon... ?

See http://www.bayonetsplus.com/f_MH_art_carbine.html

But its not! This is exactly as set out above by Norman at # 2...

E-Pattern-English-Pioneer's 1831-Lion Head Hanger-

kronckew · 5th July 2017, 05:36 PM

yup. the later ones were straight and not well loved i hear. just imagine one of the MH sword bayos on the end of a full lrngth .45 cal martini-henry rifle.

nice to see the full 1830's weapon.

Norman McCormick · 7th July 2017, 02:54 PM

Hi,
Here's the 1856 Pioneer model for comparison. I believe this particular one was issued in Jan 1900 and reissued in Nov 1902, if anyone can I.D. the stamps I'd be grateful. The chape appears to have been repaired at some point as the end should be squared off and not have the extra section as this one has. As an aside these swords were discontinued for Pioneer use but were reissued to the Royal Navy as cutlasses and not particularly well received as such as far I remember.
Regards,
Norman.

MacCathain · 7th July 2017, 03:38 PM

Norman, I believe the stamp on the scabbard throat refers to the 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, while the stamp on the guard is for the 4th Batt. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

Norman McCormick · 7th July 2017, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCathain

Norman, I believe the stamp on the scabbard throat refers to the 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, while the stamp on the guard is for the 4th Batt. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

Hi,
Many thanks for the info

My Regards,
Norman.

4th July 2017, 10:01 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	wotsit (pioneer sword?)? picked this beasty up today from an auction over the weekend, appears to be a 'pioneer' sword, what looks like a british arrow mark on the blade. blade looks similar to that on an 1830 issue baker/pioneer sword, but with an unusual large tho well made wood grip with a brass guard, end pommel, and a cross checkered wood grip. blade is 55 cm. long, 4.5 cm. wide at the guard, 6 mm. thick & distal tapered. the 20cm. 'yelman' is razor sharp, as is the blade almost to the guard. guard is 1.2cm. thick brass, carved to match the grip. pommel cap is held by 4 small brass screws with crossed heads. grip is 16cm. from guard to end of pommel. it's 4.2cm dia. at the guard, getting larger near the pommel. the 'saw' part is VERY sharp and the teeth are 'set' properly like a real hand saw, not just notches. blade is pitted, but has been polished and no active rust present. weight sans scabbard is 820gm. no other mark than the one shown. scabbard is wood, covered in what looks like vellum, or thin calfskin, light color, a bit grimey. very well done. brass chape is well made as well. small holes are on the spine near the mouth and further down where suspension ring mounts would once have been. so, wotsit? i initially thought it was a hunting sword variant of some sort, when i bid on it online, but this is more beefy than most. smaller photos were from dealer's online catalogue. thanks in advance for any help or light shed on this item. Attached Images

5th July 2017, 05:08 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It looks like a Martini Bayonet ... The British 1879 Sawback Bayonet with a reworked hilt Or an AC bayonet converted from P1859 Cutlass bayonet in 1878. Favoured in Irish circles and as an Engineers / Artillery weapon... ? See http://www.bayonetsplus.com/f_MH_art_carbine.html But its not! This is exactly as set out above by Norman at # 2... E-Pattern-English-Pioneer's 1831-Lion Head Hanger- Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 5th July 2017 at 05:28 PM.

5th July 2017, 05:36 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	yup. the later ones were straight and not well loved i hear. just imagine one of the MH sword bayos on the end of a full lrngth .45 cal martini-henry rifle. nice to see the full 1830's weapon. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2017 at 05:47 PM.

7th July 2017, 02:54 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Here's the 1856 Pioneer model for comparison. I believe this particular one was issued in Jan 1900 and reissued in Nov 1902, if anyone can I.D. the stamps I'd be grateful. The chape appears to have been repaired at some point as the end should be squared off and not have the extra section as this one has. As an aside these swords were discontinued for Pioneer use but were reissued to the Royal Navy as cutlasses and not particularly well received as such as far I remember. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

4th July 2017, 10:45 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Wayne, This thread may interest you particularly post no2 and the marks on the blade http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ifles-Regiment It is the only blade profile I think that fits yours. I have an 1856 Pattern Pioneers sword and the profile is different. Regards, Norman.

4th July 2017, 11:01 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the blade and marks fit, appears to have been repurposed, re-hilted and used in a later conflict. ww1 maybe? dad's army?

5th July 2017, 12:09 AM	#4
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Probably a private conversion rather than military. The facing arrow marks denote ''sold out of service''.

7th July 2017, 03:38 PM	#8
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 66	Norman, I believe the stamp on the scabbard throat refers to the 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, while the stamp on the guard is for the 4th Batt. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.