New Moro Kris Sheaths and handles for Comments

[alexish]

My personal own observation based on availability of old antique Moro krises for sale or on auction, is that Maranao is the most common, followed by Maguidanao and then Sulu. Do you guys have similar observations?

[David]

Originally Posted by alexish

My personal own observation based on availability of old antique Moro krises for sale or on auction, is that Maranao is the most common, followed by Maguidanao and then Sulu. Do you guys have similar observations?

My own personal observation is that the vast majority of antique Moro kris for sale or on auction do not make any tribal distinctions at all in their descriptions and that when they do they are not always accurate.

[Battara]

I agree with David. In fact, there are many other examples in people's collections that are not even seen or accounted for. So no one knows for sure.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by alexish

My personal own observation based on availability of old antique Moro krises for sale or on auction, is that Maranao is the most common, followed by Maguidanao and then Sulu. Do you guys have similar observations?

What we see online is not a fair representation of the Moro kris that have been created over the last several hundred years.

The kris from the Sulu Archipelago are likely to be under represented because of a relative lack of contact and trade between U.S. and other Western groups with the Sulu Moros compared with the Moro groups based on Mindanao. In particular, US servicemen and others were interacting with relatively friendly Moro groups on Mindanao (notably those Maguindanao controlled by Datu Piang around Reina Regente) in the early 1900s, and Col. Pershing established reasonable relations with Maranao groups of the Lake Lanao region following some punitive expeditions in the early 1900s.

The Moro groups of the smaller Sulu Archipelago islands were more troublesome and led to several major armed conflicts, with many ongoing skirmishes. While some weapons were confiscated in these conflicts, the opportunity to obtain Sulu kris via trade or barter was less than among the Mindanao groups. What we do see online are more barung than kris coming from the Sulu areas, and this may have reflected a preference by the Sulu groups for the barung, but, again, such observations need to be interpreted cautiously.

It's an interesting question you raise but one that cannot be answered with any confidence based on the relative numbers of weapons showing up online.

Ian.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by kai

I did understand your line of reasoning and apologize for failing to state that I respect this POV.

I believe we need to distinguish between evolving traditions and cultural degeneration though. Maybe the situation can be compared to the living keris tradition on Jawa: The modern generation of makers (or rather some of them) are able to craft high-quality pieces that conform to established cultural norms (pakem); however, this is a difficult task and minute deviations will result in missing the mark (and, thus, considerable loss of income). Many craftsmen seem to opt for an art approach which isn't bound by tradition: This allows for expressive free-style work that catches the eyes of customers, especially the huge majority who hasn't been initiated into the traditional aesthetics. If done well, it certainly is art; it probably isn't a regarded as a "real" keris by any traditionalist though. While one might argue that even pakem are subject to change (as they did in history), I do feel there is a considerable difference between any cultural development that takes place within a cultural setting of norms, traditions, and, especially, underlying symbolic code/language compared to a free-style approach which tosses out the meaning in favor of appealing to any uneducated eyes.

Coming back to Tugaya: Apparently much of the Moro language coded in kris and its fittings has been lost and/or is kept secret; I don't see any indications that the current artisans are trying to "speak" to a culturally educated/initiated audience. Most of the pieces are being sold to cultural outsiders, anyway.

BTW, gunong seem to continue being produced closer to traditions and some of the design elements even carry over into modern kris fittings...

Hello Kai,

Thank you for the acknowledgement. I also respect your point of view.

I've been around shops in Metro Manila and Davao where I've seen some newly made Mindanao krises with new stylistic elements, but which also conform to traditional standards. Recently, I held a brand new kris with a separate gangya (not just a line) which indicated to me that manufacturers are now aware of some "signs" collectors are looking for. While the seasoned collector would be able to tell they are merely aged to look antique (and a few other things), these swords are nonetheless really beautiful and would appeal to a niche market.

In terms of function, they are equally lethal and may even better many of the antique krises I have personally handled. As display items, these new swords look nicer. In many ways, the modern products are superior to the antiques.

However, as a weapon, the kris has become obsolete. I therefore see the production of krises these days as akin to manufacturing sophisticated typewriters in the age of laptops and personal computers. It has its niche market but has become mainly, a novelty item. I think this is the reason why manufacturers have to resort to "creative" efforts to sell their products but it is something they have to do to keep their livelihood and traditions going.

I'm not sure if I made sense. But I do agree that we can also look at this as a form of "cultural degeneration." Anyway, I don't want to divert the discussion away from Alexish' queries.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[F. de Luzon]

Hi Alexish,

I also agree with David, Battara and Ian.

Best,

Fernando

[alexish]

Dear Fernando,

Can you share with us some photos of good newly-made krisses and their sheaths?

Maybe you can start a newly thread on this subject.

[alexish]

For comparison, I also enclose pictures of a new kris sheath that I comissioned in Malaysia about 10 years ago.

[Ian]

Alexish:

These pics are too small to make out any of the details. Can you post them again in larger format. Perhaps a new thread might be appropriate for that discussion.

Ian.

[alexish]

I hereby enclose bigger images of the kris sheath.

[Battara]

To me the blade looks older (late 19th - early 20th century?) than everything else.

[Sajen]

Agree with Jose, old/antique blade with recent fittings.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

To me the blade looks older (late 19th - early 20th century?) than everything else.

Well yes, i believe Alexish made that clear in post #38. This is new dress that he commissioned for this old blade 10 years ago. He does not say where or from whom he commissioned it from. If an Indonesian craftsman made this then the question might be does it look like authentic Moro work? Are the motifs correct for what we know as okir or does it miss the mark as so much dress crafted outside the original culture of redressed blades do?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Well yes, i believe Alexish made that clear in post #38. This is new dress that he commissioned for this old blade 10 years ago. He does not say where or from whom he commissioned it from. If an Indonesian craftsman made this then the question might be does it look like authentic Moro work? Are the motifs correct for what we know as okir or does it miss the mark as so much dress crafted outside the original culture of redressed blades do?

Hello David,

yes, you are correct! Look like Adnis pictures! The fittings don't look like old Moro work, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

I agree with Detlef.

These interpretations of Moro work shown by alexish are not typical of recent Moro items coming from Mindanao, and are clearly distinct from more traditional Moro styles.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

... If an Indonesian craftsman made this then the question might be does it look like authentic Moro work? Are the motifs correct for what we know as okir or does it miss the mark as so much dress crafted outside the original culture of redressed blades do?

David,

In response to your questions, I think we can say:

NO--this does not look like authentic Moro work, and
NO--the motifs are mostly not correct for Moro okir, and
YES--it largely misses the mark of what a redressed blade would look like in the original culture.

My main concerns are that these pieces tend to be overly embellished and the proportions of various features are different, thereby losing touch with much of the form and simplicity of the original designs and missing the mark. These interpretations are obviously based on the originals that alexish has shown, but they are artists' interpretations from outside the culture and suffer accordingly. Again, these are well carved and one can admire the skill in their crafting.

Ian.

Ian

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

David,

In response to your questions, I think we can say:

NO--this does not look like authentic Moro work, and
NO--the motifs are mostly not correct for Moro okir, and
YES--it largely misses the mark of what a redressed blade would look like in the original culture.

My main concerns are that these pieces tend to be overly embellished and the proportions of various features are different, thereby losing touch with much of the form and simplicity of the original designs and missing the mark. These interpretations are obviously based on the originals that alexish has shown, but they are artists' interpretations from outside the culture and suffer accordingly. Again, these are well carved and one can admire the skill in their crafting.

Ian.

Ian

Thanks Ian, but these were not MY questions, they were Alexish's. I was merely clarifying those questions due to both José's and Detlef's response to the posting of the larger photos.

[kai]

Detlef has identified the facilitator - it certainly doesn't look like it ever was supposed to represent Moro style. However, it's also not a Malay style (nor motifs) that I recognize. Not knowing who was the actual artisan doing these fittings, I'd guess that this is more of a modern art approach.

While I do love the Sulu scabbard type with flared tip, this example's tip leaves something to be desired IMHO...

Regards,
Kai

[mross]

Here is a link to what I think is a good modern Moro restoration;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11599

And there was discussion on what should have been, but IMHO it's good.