Masai Spear and Sword

Miguel · 6th May 2017, 04:40 PM

Hello Everyone, uncovered these two recently and am posting them for interest and?or comment.

The spear has quite a long narrow blade, 43 ins including socket x 1.75 ins at widest point and has a central rib. the iron spike end is 35.5 ins including socket and the wooden handle is 4 ins long making a total length of 82.5 ins.

The sword ( Seme) has an O/L of 23 ins and a blade length of 17.5 ins varying from 0.875 ins to 2.125 ins in width with a central ridge.
The scabbard is leather and together with the hilt is coloured red.
thank you.
Miguel

Battara · 7th May 2017, 12:44 AM

I want to say that they are both Masai, in Kenya.

The spear is known as a "lion spear" and yes the sword is a seme.

Timo Nieminen · 7th May 2017, 09:53 AM

Is the seme scabbard (and grip) fairly new? Or recently re-coloured?

The blade looks old (newer ones are usually made from machete blades and don't look like short fat lion spear blades), and if the colour is old, it's survived very well.

Battara · 7th May 2017, 08:12 PM

The seme does look newish, doesn't it?

Sajen · 7th May 2017, 10:27 PM

So far I know are the really old seme blades look like Timo described and older ones have a central rib like the one in question and from the middle of the 20th centry were used flat blades from recycled machete blades or other material. But like the others said, the colour look really fresh, early collected in it's life or recent, the only two possibilities IMVHO.

The lion spear look like it has some good age.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 7th May 2017, 10:40 PM

The first two pictures show seme like from Timo described, the real old ones. Third picture show an older example with similar blade shape like Miguels one, the last picture an example from recent times but used.

Miguel · 9th May 2017, 05:54 PM

Thank you Battara, Timo and Detlef for your comments and photos which are much appreciated. I think Timo`s suggestion that the Seme is an older one that has had the hilt recovered and the scabbard replaced or re-coloured is most likely to be correct. From what I have read about the Seme the older ones besides having median ridges also had ribbed hilts as shown on the third photo posted by Detlef whereas the handle on mine is smooth as on the later ones, also both the hilt and scabbard show little signs of wear. Thank you again.
Miguel

colin henshaw · 10th May 2017, 09:27 PM

Probably 1960-1970s in date.

Miguel · 11th May 2017, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Probably 1960-1970s in date.

Thanks Colin I had no idea of age but with it having a central ridge assumed it to be older. Have you any idea when the smiths started to use Machetes to produce the flat bladed Semes? Thanks again.
Miguel

Sajen · 11th May 2017, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Have you any idea when the smiths started to use Machetes to produce the flat bladed Semes?

When this change in blade construction isn't documented somewhere this will be only a guess and frankly said I can't guess it. But there will be also the possibility that there is an overlapping area where both styles get worked, the ones with central rib like yours and the ones with recycled blades. Your's is a well made one with a good worked scabbard, nice piece.

Regards,
Detlef

colin henshaw · 12th May 2017, 09:27 AM

As far as I know, the seme blade being hand-forged with a mid-rib, is not in itself an indicator of age. Flat sheet steel blades for semes, pangas etc have been in use for quite a long time. I saw myself the Masai in Kenya carrying spears, bows & arrows etc., when guarding their cattle in the late 1970s early 1980s. Probably they still do. They are also made for the tourist trade.

I remember seeing Masai men buying new spear points and shoes (hand-forged) from a small Indian duka (shop) !

I am judging the items from their whole appearance when assigning a date range, but could be wrong of course...

Regards.

Tim Simmons · 12th May 2017, 10:43 AM

The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples.

Miguel · 12th May 2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

When this change in blade construction isn't documented somewhere this will be only a guess and frankly said I can't guess it. But there will be also the possibility that there is an overlapping area where both styles get worked, the ones with central rib like yours and the ones with recycled blades. Your's is a well made one with a good worked scabbard, nice piece.

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks for your comment Detlef, I think it is a difficult thing to put a precise date on and feel that the 1960s/70s as suggested by Colin is probably nearer the mark so it could be an overlapping example..
Miguel

Miguel · 12th May 2017, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

As far as I know, the seme blade being hand-forged with a mid-rib, is not in itself an indicator of age. Flat sheet steel blades for semes, pangas etc have been in use for quite a long time. I saw myself the Masai in Kenya carrying spears, bows & arrows etc., when guarding their cattle in the late 1970s early 1980s. Probably they still do. They are also made for the tourist trade.

I remember seeing Masai men buying new spear points and shoes (hand-forged) from a small Indian duka (shop) !

I am judging the items from their whole appearance when assigning a date range, but could be wrong of course...

Regards.

Thanks Colin for your interesting comments and I now have a feeling that your suggested dating is probably not far off the mark.
Miguel

Miguel · 12th May 2017, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples.

Thank you for your reply Tim, I agree with you regarding the early form of the Seme and much more elegant than the later forms. Our local museum had a beautiful example many years ago when as a child of about 8 yrs old I used to visit two or three times a week. It contained all manner of weapons and artefacts and was like an Aladdin's cave to me and my friends and was one of the reasons for my interest in Ethnographic arms artefacts. I missed my opportunity about 30 years ago at an arms fair when I rejected one I spotted on a stand due to it being stuck in its scabbard.

Your opinion of them having 3 stages in their form is interesting and plausible I think. Thanks again.
Miguel

Sajen · 12th May 2017, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples.

Exactly my thoughts as well!

colin henshaw · 14th May 2017, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples.

I would say this is a fairly accurate synopsis, with the following exceptions :-

1. Early East African native spears and swords were not tempered, they were quite soft and could sometimes be bent in the hand. Smelted from local iron ore. There are old pictures of Masai lion hunts with the spears well bent.

2. The use of machete blades etc did not completely replace semes being forged from scrap iron with mid-ribs. I have seen many similar new(ish) examples like that posted by Miguel. There is no shortage of scrap metal in Kenya. Its also important to remember that Kenya in particular has been producing large numbers of these sort of objects for the tourist trade for many decades now.

6th May 2017, 04:40 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Masai Spear and Sword Hello Everyone, uncovered these two recently and am posting them for interest and?or comment. The spear has quite a long narrow blade, 43 ins including socket x 1.75 ins at widest point and has a central rib. the iron spike end is 35.5 ins including socket and the wooden handle is 4 ins long making a total length of 82.5 ins. The sword ( Seme) has an O/L of 23 ins and a blade length of 17.5 ins varying from 0.875 ins to 2.125 ins in width with a central ridge. The scabbard is leather and together with the hilt is coloured red. thank you. Miguel Attached Images

7th May 2017, 10:27 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	So far I know are the really old seme blades look like Timo described and older ones have a central rib like the one in question and from the middle of the 20th centry were used flat blades from recycled machete blades or other material. But like the others said, the colour look really fresh, early collected in it's life or recent, the only two possibilities IMVHO. The lion spear look like it has some good age. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 7th May 2017 at 10:41 PM.

7th May 2017, 10:40 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	The first two pictures show seme like from Timo described, the real old ones. Third picture show an older example with similar blade shape like Miguels one, the last picture an example from recent times but used. Attached Images

12th May 2017, 10:43 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The 19th and early 20th century spear blade are quite distinctive. You will know one when you see it and grab it. I am of the opinion that there are possibly 3 stages in seme form. The earliest are long and thin with a good temper and forging, can be used in a fast manner. Then I think they remained long and got quite a bit heavier. Perhaps slightly clumsy forging relying more on force of weight. Then finally the size of seme we see today. which can be short sword to large knife size again I think the early versions are forged and superseded by reground machete blades. This is just my " opinion" from collecting observation and handling examples. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th May 2017 at 11:20 AM.

7th May 2017, 12:44 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I want to say that they are both Masai, in Kenya. The spear is known as a "lion spear" and yes the sword is a seme.

7th May 2017, 09:53 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Is the seme scabbard (and grip) fairly new? Or recently re-coloured? The blade looks old (newer ones are usually made from machete blades and don't look like short fat lion spear blades), and if the colour is old, it's survived very well.

7th May 2017, 08:12 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The seme does look newish, doesn't it?

9th May 2017, 05:54 PM	#7
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Thank you Battara, Timo and Detlef for your comments and photos which are much appreciated. I think Timo`s suggestion that the Seme is an older one that has had the hilt recovered and the scabbard replaced or re-coloured is most likely to be correct. From what I have read about the Seme the older ones besides having median ridges also had ribbed hilts as shown on the third photo posted by Detlef whereas the handle on mine is smooth as on the later ones, also both the hilt and scabbard show little signs of wear. Thank you again. Miguel

10th May 2017, 09:27 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Probably 1960-1970s in date.

12th May 2017, 09:27 AM	#11
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	As far as I know, the seme blade being hand-forged with a mid-rib, is not in itself an indicator of age. Flat sheet steel blades for semes, pangas etc have been in use for quite a long time. I saw myself the Masai in Kenya carrying spears, bows & arrows etc., when guarding their cattle in the late 1970s early 1980s. Probably they still do. They are also made for the tourist trade. I remember seeing Masai men buying new spear points and shoes (hand-forged) from a small Indian duka (shop) ! I am judging the items from their whole appearance when assigning a date range, but could be wrong of course... Regards.