A Modified Sword, but what is it now ?

drac2k · 28th October 2016, 01:36 AM

I recently acquired this sword which was listed as a hunting cutlass,and it may well be , however, I was wondering where this blade originally came from, are there any other examples such as this,how old is it, etc., etc.
I do acknowledge that I may have purchased some person's recent metal shop project, but darn, he(or she), did a great job!
I would guess that it has an Eastern European look to it based on nothing else than a feeling.

VANDOO · 28th October 2016, 07:50 AM

MOST OF THESE I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN THE SHORTER MORE COMMON HUNTING SWORDS. THIS ONE LOOKS TO BE A FULL SIZE SWORD BUT SHOWS THE AGE AND ENGRAVINGS I ASSOCIATE WITH THE ENGLISH HUNTING SWORDS.
IT LOOKS LIKE AN AUTHENTIC GOOD QUALITY SWORD TO ME AND COMPLETE WITH SCABBARD. ITS NOT MY FIELD BUT I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL COME ALONG SOON TO HELP YOU WITH MORE INFORMATION. A VERY NICE SWORD.

HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME SIMILAR SWORDS THESE ARE POLISH. I THINK YOURS MAY BE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY.

drac2k · 28th October 2016, 12:12 PM

Thanks VANDOO, I think you are spot on .It looks to me to be a reconfigured sword.The blade measures approx. 26" long,it has been re-tipped into a spear point and about a third of it has a sharpened "false edge," on the backside.

Roland_M · 28th October 2016, 12:48 PM

The blade looks like a Shashka blade, maybe an early Zlatoust-blade.

Roland

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2016, 10:56 PM

The hunting cutlass description is actually somewhat understandable as the hilt on this is likely a continental 'hirschfanger' which was the German term for hunting sword or coute de chasse (French). These most commonly were with grips of staghorn, ebony or sometimes ivory or bone. These are clearly modern replacement (beautifully done in wood!).
The blade and what appears to be its scabbard is indeed also Continental European, and the style of motif and bluing as well as early 19th c. military officers mounts suggest from an officers sabre. The sabres posted by Vandoo are with the karabela style hilt, while well known in Poland, and much favored on European hunting type swords.

The Zlatoust suggestion is interesting and as far as being a shashka it could be thought of in that term as Russian officers sabres were often called by that term, although obviously not the sabres we refer to as such. Russian military swords often followed French styles, and this seems to have a French or German military feel.

Russians often remounted trophy/award/diplomatic gift blades on other style hilts which were either presented to officers or sometimes heirloom type circumstances.

Hunting swords were often within the scope of officers military dress swords as the hunt was a status oriented situation where military and other fashion in weapons and accoutrements were quite de rigueur. This is why hunting and court swords are often seen paired in references.

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 02:37 PM

As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements.
First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened.
Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan.
The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword.
So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

corrado26 · 29th October 2016, 03:28 PM

The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum.
corrado26

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.

corrado26 · 29th October 2016, 05:09 PM

No, that's not correct. Abraham Kirschbaum is already mentioned in 1795. But in 1883 the Kirschbaum firm was united with the firm o the Brothers Weyersberg to Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co. So the "AK" is at least 100 years earlier.
The decoration of the blade is certainly from the mid to the end of the 18th century.
corrado26

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 05:15 PM

Thank you for the correction.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2016, 08:20 PM

I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c.
The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also).
The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence.

It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries.
A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords.

In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period.

Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments.

Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c.

Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 09:55 AM

The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark.
corrado26

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 10:10 AM

An other foto shows this mark on a Wuerttemberg infantry officers sabre M
1817
corrado26

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 10:16 AM

The last foto with this mark : A Prussian "Bluecher-sabre" M 1811 made by "Schimmelbusch & Sohn Solingen ".
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2016, 07:15 PM

Corrado, thank you so much for that information and the great illustrations!
I will add to my notes, and this is most interesting. Another of those great nuances in the mysteries of these blade markings, pretty exciting stuff.

drac2k · 31st October 2016, 11:00 PM

Jim, I knew what you meant by modern and I concur which your time analysis.Corrado has proven that the blade is German, probably Napoleonic and I have dug out of my collection a Turkish sword with the same kind of rivet construction.
My theory was that the sword had not had the handles repaired, but that it was assembled with them in the late 19th, early 20th century for the Turkish market, probably pre-1919.I think that the German association of the blade does not hurt my case, as they were allies in WW1.
I thank everyone for their insightful information.

canos · 9th November 2016, 06:36 PM

The mark AK on the blade might stand for: Johann Abraham KNECHT / Solingen.
* 8.07.1764 / + 6.05.1812

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2016, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canos

The mark AK on the blade might stand for: Johann Abraham KNECHT / Solingen.
* 8.07.1764 / + 6.05.1812

Canos, thank you for that observation, I had totally overlooked that maker!
Also, welcome to our forum!!! Its great to have new members interested in solving these mysteries, and good to have you on the team.

fernando · 10th November 2016, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Canos, thank you for that observation, I had totally overlooked that maker!
Also, welcome to our forum!!! Its great to have new members interested in solving these mysteries, and good to have you on the team.

Amen

.

28th October 2016, 01:36 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	A Modified Sword, but what is it now ? I recently acquired this sword which was listed as a hunting cutlass,and it may well be , however, I was wondering where this blade originally came from, are there any other examples such as this,how old is it, etc., etc. I do acknowledge that I may have purchased some person's recent metal shop project, but darn, he(or she), did a great job! I would guess that it has an Eastern European look to it based on nothing else than a feeling. Attached Images

28th October 2016, 07:50 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MOST OF THESE I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN THE SHORTER MORE COMMON HUNTING SWORDS. THIS ONE LOOKS TO BE A FULL SIZE SWORD BUT SHOWS THE AGE AND ENGRAVINGS I ASSOCIATE WITH THE ENGLISH HUNTING SWORDS. IT LOOKS LIKE AN AUTHENTIC GOOD QUALITY SWORD TO ME AND COMPLETE WITH SCABBARD. ITS NOT MY FIELD BUT I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL COME ALONG SOON TO HELP YOU WITH MORE INFORMATION. A VERY NICE SWORD. HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME SIMILAR SWORDS THESE ARE POLISH. I THINK YOURS MAY BE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 28th October 2016 at 08:16 AM.

30th October 2016, 09:55 AM	#12
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark. corrado26 Attached Images

30th October 2016, 10:10 AM	#13
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	An other foto shows this mark on a Wuerttemberg infantry officers sabre M 1817 corrado26 Attached Images

30th October 2016, 10:16 AM	#14
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The last foto with this mark : A Prussian "Bluecher-sabre" M 1811 made by "Schimmelbusch & Sohn Solingen ". corrado26 Attached Images

28th October 2016, 12:12 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks VANDOO, I think you are spot on .It looks to me to be a reconfigured sword.The blade measures approx. 26" long,it has been re-tipped into a spear point and about a third of it has a sharpened "false edge," on the backside.

28th October 2016, 12:48 PM	#4
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	The blade looks like a Shashka blade, maybe an early Zlatoust-blade. Roland

28th October 2016, 10:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	The hunting cutlass description is actually somewhat understandable as the hilt on this is likely a continental 'hirschfanger' which was the German term for hunting sword or coute de chasse (French). These most commonly were with grips of staghorn, ebony or sometimes ivory or bone. These are clearly modern replacement (beautifully done in wood!). The blade and what appears to be its scabbard is indeed also Continental European, and the style of motif and bluing as well as early 19th c. military officers mounts suggest from an officers sabre. The sabres posted by Vandoo are with the karabela style hilt, while well known in Poland, and much favored on European hunting type swords. The Zlatoust suggestion is interesting and as far as being a shashka it could be thought of in that term as Russian officers sabres were often called by that term, although obviously not the sabres we refer to as such. Russian military swords often followed French styles, and this seems to have a French or German military feel. Russians often remounted trophy/award/diplomatic gift blades on other style hilts which were either presented to officers or sometimes heirloom type circumstances. Hunting swords were often within the scope of officers military dress swords as the hunt was a status oriented situation where military and other fashion in weapons and accoutrements were quite de rigueur. This is why hunting and court swords are often seen paired in references.

29th October 2016, 02:37 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements. First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened. Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan. The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword. So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

29th October 2016, 03:28 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum. corrado26

29th October 2016, 03:52 PM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.

29th October 2016, 05:09 PM	#9
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	No, that's not correct. Abraham Kirschbaum is already mentioned in 1795. But in 1883 the Kirschbaum firm was united with the firm o the Brothers Weyersberg to Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co. So the "AK" is at least 100 years earlier. The decoration of the blade is certainly from the mid to the end of the 18th century. corrado26

29th October 2016, 05:15 PM	#10
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thank you for the correction.

29th October 2016, 08:20 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c. The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also). The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence. It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries. A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords. In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period. Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments. Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c. Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?

30th October 2016, 07:15 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Corrado, thank you so much for that information and the great illustrations! I will add to my notes, and this is most interesting. Another of those great nuances in the mysteries of these blade markings, pretty exciting stuff.

31st October 2016, 11:00 PM	#16
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Jim, I knew what you meant by modern and I concur which your time analysis.Corrado has proven that the blade is German, probably Napoleonic and I have dug out of my collection a Turkish sword with the same kind of rivet construction. My theory was that the sword had not had the handles repaired, but that it was assembled with them in the late 19th, early 20th century for the Turkish market, probably pre-1919.I think that the German association of the blade does not hurt my case, as they were allies in WW1. I thank everyone for their insightful information. Attached Images

9th November 2016, 06:36 PM	#17
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Mark AK The mark AK on the blade might stand for: Johann Abraham KNECHT / Solingen. * 8.07.1764 / + 6.05.1812