Cute but what is it really?

[Marcus]

I succumbed to this recent item posted on Oriental Arms. I would question (as does Artzi) if it is from Java. Other suggestions?

[Sajen]

Hi Marcus,

what is the handle material?

Regards,
Detlef

[Marcus]

Artzi says ivory.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Artzi says ivory.

I doubt a little bit, would like to see your pictures when you have received it. Special some close ups. I would call this item piso/pisau (knife). Unusual item.

Regards,
Detlef

[Marcus]

Trying to identify the features of the character.

[Marcus]

Small knife with a carved human figure hilt .
Van Zonneveld Page 108

[kai]

No, this knife is not Batak - for sure (very different style).

I also highly doubt it is from anywhere on Java (including Madura).

It might be worthwhile to check the Sasak from Lombok as a possible culture of origin - just a very tentative guess though!

Considering patina/etc., how old would you estimate this piece to be, Marcus?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Marcus,

first, the handle material look indeed like ivory. And agree with Kai, for sure not a Batak knife. But I wouldn't rule out East Java or Madura but could be as well from Bali/Lombok. On your pictures it look much better. Nice piece.

Regards,
Detlef

[Marcus]

I was just grasping at straws. The features of the character look to me like a blend of Chinese and perhaps even African. Other aspects of the knife do suggest Indonesian to me but not typical of any type I am familiar with. I really would love to place it. My guess on age would be early twentieth century.
Other opinions welcome.
Marcus

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Other aspects of the knife do suggest Indonesian to me but not typical of any type I am familiar with. I really would love to place it. My guess on age would be early twentieth century.

It's clearly Indonesian and I am nearly sure that I have given the direction where you have to search, it will from one of this places or nearby. The carving at the scabbard is clearly a good point from which you can get hints for the origin. Could also older, maybe end of 19th century, the patina look very good. Not every knife you can find in a book and collecting blades is not like collect stamps. The scabbard is very well made, it was a worthy knife for someone.

Regards,
Detlef

[Marcus]

A Balinese friend who is a tour guide assures me that this is from Bali based on the style of the carving.

[A. G. Maisey]

I rather doubt that this is a Balinese knife, the reason being that I have never seen any Balinese knife with a blade shape like this, or a scabbard shape like this,

Is the hilt figure wearing trousers, or at least leg coverings under his sarung?

What does that tell us, if he is?

Another indicator of origin might be in the internal ornamentation of the tumpal motif.

[Gustav]

I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure.

It is an absolutely eclectic mix of many very different elements from Sumatra, Madura, Bali. It would look for about 50% more authentic without that big face on sheath.

For sure we all recognize the different elements - the overall Sumatranese sheath shape (with absolutely non-Sumatranese ornamentics), the Madurese motif at the sheath throath, the DongSon (Moon of Pejeng) or typical late Majapahit face with bulging eyes (with moustache, which was en voque only in Bali/Madura), the hilt figure with typical Lotus/Yoni motif at the base.

[Sajen]

[QUOTE=Gustav]I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure./QUOTE]

Sorry Gustav, I strongly doubt!

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I do agree with your stylistic analysis, but I tend to disagree with your conclusion.

My feeling, and it is a feeling, rather than a defensible opinion, is that we are looking at a dealer's montage,

OR

and this is big "OR", something that has been put together from bits and pieces in Indonesia, by an Indonesian, for use.

Over the years I've seen a lot of married daggers and swords, often with quite good age, but with a mix of component parts, I have seldom bought these things, but the fact remains that parts of weapons travel, and when they get somewhere that somebody wants to use them, they get re-assembled.

I saw a wonderful example of this a few years ago, it had been brought back by a WWII soldier from a little village on the North Coast of Sumatera, it was a keris, and every single part of it came from a different place. There was a story with it, that unusual for me, I was prepared to accept at face value. Very briefly, the soldier was trying to get across Sumatera from Singapore after Singapore fell, he got to this little fishing village, where the village leader gave him food and shelter, he stayed there for a while, and during his stay the village leader's daughter, or wife (unclear which) fell ill, and the soldier was able to cure her. When he left to move on, the village leader gave him the parting gift of this mix & match keris.

The thing is this:- people in Indonesia do not waste anything, and if they get bits and pieces of something from a different area from where they live, they use those things --- blade from here, hilt from there, make the ferrule, repair a scabbard from somewhere else --- and what you finish up with is a mix of parts that simply cannot be put into the context of one location.

Where a kraton has influence over an area, people tend to pretty much follow the dress dictates of that kraton, but the further you get from this sort of influence, the more people go their own way.

On the subject of dealers' montages. During the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's there was a major --- and I mean MAJOR --- English antiques and weapons dealer who had a factory that was devoted to the production of antique weapons from genuine and false antique parts. These were then sold through both the dealer's shopfront, and through auction. There's a lot of stuff out there that gives a very good impression of being genuine, but is not so.

[Marcus]

He says it is a "keris seselet", a search term which does not register in the forum database. He says it is a sort of everyday knife.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marcus, I understand that you might believe that your tour guide contact in Bali is a very good source of local information, however, it is recognised by those people who have had long and intimate experience with Bali and Jawa that the information that any outsider receives from local people is information that must be checked and cross checked numerous times before it can be accepted as being even remotely accurate. In my 50 year experience it is seldom accurate.

In all of my more than 100 visits to Bali, I have never seen any knife that is at all like this one, and when I'm in Bali, I immerse myself in knives, keris and all associated matters.

This knife is not at all like any current production general purpose Balinese knife, nor any from past times that I have seen.

Your tour guide might be right, and I might be wrong, but I do suggest that you list his opinion with all other opinions and check and cross check before you accept any opinion as correct.

One thing I will add is this:- there is no way on God's Green Earth that this knife can be referred to as a keris. The word selet alone means "in its sheath", "se" is a prefix that means "with" in this context, so "seselet" means "with sheath".:- " keris with sheath".

Not in my book.

[Marcus]

It does not look to me like they are trousers

[Sajen]

Hello Marcus,

may I ask what is the white stuff visible between handle and tang at this picture?

[Marcus]

It looks to me like the white stuff is the ivory of the figure, carved down to a collar. The blade is held (firmly) in place with wooden shims.