Keris Bugis for comments

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

I recently acquired the Keris in the photos below. As I am a novice in the fiel, any comment would be most welcomed.

[Battara]

Looks nice. Congratulations!

The dress looks like court wear...........

[Sajen]

Hi Marius,

look good to my eyes as well so far what I can see. This type of keris is said coming from Sumbawa. But there a lot of recent examples like this on the market. Here some interesting reading for you: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sumbawa

Regards,
Detlef

[asomotif]

Nice blade.

Silverwork looks to be very fine detailled. Do you have some close ups ?

Ps, do you have a picture of the opening of the scabbard without the blade in it ?

Best regards,
Willem

[Marcokeris]

Nice

[Jean]

A typical and quite good Bugis kris with a scabbard recently "embellished" with silver. Personally I prefer the original wooden scabbards like this one.
Regards

[Roland_M]

Hello Marius,

in my eyes you have acquired a very nice Bugis. Rare to see, it's complete including the loop, which is often missing.
A well done Warangi in Java (I have a contact for you if wanted) could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.
Congratulations.

Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you for your comments!

@Detlef
Thank you very much for the link! The discussion there was very useful for better understanding my Kris.

@Marcokeris
Thanks!

@ Willem
Taking more close-up photos would require some natural light and mounting my gear on a fixed stand, and considering that I usually arrive home from work rather late and that Saturday I will go on holidays, I'm too lazy to make all the effort. The opening in the Wrankgka and the silver fitting are flush on the interior as well so I am prety sure it is the original wrangka belonging to the blade.

@ Jean
I also think the silverwork may be latter addition. However, I think it is of the correct type and style.

@ Roland
Thank you, but I agree with Alan (see his comment below). The pamor is quite visible and I like the lesser contrast.

@ Alan
Thank you for your suggestion! I was thinking the same.

[A. G. Maisey]

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

Thank you Alan!

[David]

I would agree with Alan than an aggressive warangan treatment on this keris would not be culturally inappropriate. While i understand the desire to see such a nice pattern "pop" with high contrast , that is far less acceptable outside of the Java/Bali/Madura nexus. I think that it is important for us to understand that the manner in which different keris bearing cultures maintain their blades is not the same and that Indonesia is indeed made up of numerous cultures.
The question of the Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli) has been an ongoing one that i am still not certain we have ever had clear and concise answers on. There do seem to be a fair amount of this style of dress available on the market these days and i suspect that Marius' example is probably more contemporary and may have been added to this dress later. Still, it seems to have a little bit of age and is nicely and tastefully done. I still have questions about the function of this feature traditionally. Was it reserved for a certain social level to convey status? Does it serve any practical function? Is it appropriate to simply add it to the dress of any culturally Bugis keris? We have discussed these questions in these threads, but i am not sure we actually came to any agreed upon conclusion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

.....recently "embellished" with silver.

What is recent in the world of keris and how important is it? And I am really not sure if all the silver is new/recent.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Personally I prefer the original wooden scabbards like this one.

So you wouldn't like to own some of the keris scabbards are shown in the first link posted by David and would prefer a "simple" wooden one? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli So please feel free when you come across one to send it to me, I'll send you a pure wooden one!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A well done Warangi in Java could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.

Agree here with Alan and David, I don't see any need of a new warangan for this blade.

[Bob A]

Many women and a harmonious household . . . lots of power in that keris, apparently.


Quite an attractive piece, to my unschooled eye.

[A. G. Maisey]

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

It's called "economies of scale."

PS: I hope your wife doesn't see this!

[A. G. Maisey]

Naw --- they won't mind.

joking -- joking --- just joking.

Actually when I wrote that thing I was thinking of a bloke I used to buy from who had a stall in Pasar Beringharjo in Jogja. Pak Kadir, he came from Palembang. He was promoted to another realm some time ago, so I reckon its OK to tell this. He used to bitch to me about his wives. He had one in Jogja, one in Palembang, and the woman with the stall opposite reckoned he had another one down the road in Klaten. Anyway, Pak Kadir reckoned that Christians had the game sewn up:- one wife, only one wife. One wife = one house, one lot of household expenses, one servant, one everything. He reckoned that was the reason Christians were rich and Indonesians were poor:- too many wives.

Of course, no wives at all you can get even richer --- and that reminds me of another Indonesian I used to know. He was --- very strangely --- Greek Orthodox. He reckoned that he loved milk, but that didn't mean he had to own a cow.

[Henk]

Great this humor .

Beautiful keris and as said here, leave it the way it is. I have some Bugis keris in the same condition. Indonesian people in my neighbourhood told me that the Bugis used their keris as a weapon. The warangan treatment was done with the delivery and the only treatment for a Bugis blade was cleaning with lemon juce wich faded the high contrast of the warangan treatment away during the time.
This in contradistinction with the Javanese/Balinese/Madurese societies where the warang treatment was done regurlary.
This confirms what is said here.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Of course, no wives at all you can get even richer ---

Actually, the trick isn't no wives if you want to maintain some wealth, it's no children...

[A. G. Maisey]

Depends David.

Kids can be either a debit entry or a credit entry.

I hold the opinion that we should improve their education by sending them to work just about as soon as they can walk, just make sure they make more money than it costs to feed them.

Of course, if you're a farmer your kids just naturally start work as soon as they can get around without a nappy.

I probably didn't start young enough, but by age 8 I was going on to building jobs with my Dad and getting morning teas, and lunches, and sweeping up and fetching tools. It was very educational. It taught me that I never, ever wanted to earn my living as a tradesman.

Then there is the example of my barber. He was born in Italy. The system in the town where he was born was that kids went to school in the morning, and as soon as they were judged to be sufficiently mature, usually about 8 years of age, they were expected to find somebody in the town to teach them a trade. He started work with a barber. He was a fully trained barber at age 14.

This whole thing that is now current in many places about child labour being evil is totally, totally incorrect. It displays abysmal ignorance of any world other than the one in which people who do not know insufficiency live.

In places like Indonesia, India, and other developing countries the contribution of the children to the family income is essential.

It continues past prepubescent childhood too. In most working class Indonesian families one child will be identified as the one to be educated, and the other children will leave school as early as is feasible in order to pay for that child's education. The educated child, if successful repays the debt when he becomes productive.

Children are only expensive if they are treated in a way that fails to educate them in the ways of the real world.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Children are only expensive if they are treated in a way that fails to educate them in the ways of the real world.

Well, welcome to the "civilized" world Alan. I live in a culture that frowns just a bit on child labor. Child rearing is a great expense, from the cradle through the excessively expensive college educations that ideally i am supposed to be saving for all through the child's life if i am trying to be a "good" parent.
I am not arguing your logic Alan, but i don't live in Indonesia or India or any other place where children make an essential financial contribution to the family.

[Rick]

It works out.
Mine does by not asking for loans, ever.
He makes really good money, works 7 months out of the year, has two houses, 3 Toyotas, two boats and is living the dream.

Plus I got a Grandson out of the deal.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, I live in a similar society, and not particularly wanting to spend time in court fighting well meaning but deluded "do-gooders" I have lived my life more or less in accordance with the standards of the society I live in, however, having seen both sides of the coin, I really do wish sometimes that the fat, happy tree huggers who live in Sydney, New York , London etc, would just butt out of telling people who live in other societies, how to raise their children.

I do know more than just a little about the cost of raising children, including a number of children whom I did not father.

[mariusgmioc]

The problem with our "Western" societies is that "politically correctness" (which I equal to idiocy) has completely replaced common sense.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.

I could add a 5000 word paper to that, in fact I have a suitable one ready that I wrote maybe 7 or 8 years ago --- and things have become worse since then.

But I doubt that it would be appreciated.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yep.

I could add a 5000 word paper to that, in fact I have a suitable one ready that I wrote maybe 7 or 8 years ago --- and things have become worse since then.

But I doubt that it would be appreciated.

Of course it won't be appreciated as it won't conform to the newly imposed politically correct norms.

[David]

ummmm....OK gentlemen, we are had a nice little tour into off-topic land and i would like to see the conversation return to keris, unless folks feel we are done here.
Frankly i still don't feel i have ever had a completely satisfactory explanation of the purpose/function and/or societal placement of Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli). They have become very commonplace on newly made dress for keris i see in the marketplace, but i get the feeling that this is a rather new phenomenon that does this style of dress a bit of a disservice. Anyone have ideas on this?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David

ummmm....OK gentlemen, we are had a nice little tour into off-topic land and i would like to see the conversation return to keris, unless folks feel we are done here.
Frankly i still don't feel i have ever had a completely satisfactory explanation of the purpose/function and/or societal placement of Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli). They have become very commonplace on newly made dress for keris i see in the marketplace, but i get the feeling that this is a rather new phenomenon that does this style of dress a bit of a disservice. Anyone have ideas on this?

Why the Toli-toli are prevailing these days, I think is easy to guess: because they look good and improve the aesthetical appearance of the keris (eventually making them more saleable)... right?!

PS: At least I like them!

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why the Toli-toli are prevailing these days, I think is easy to guess: because they look good and improve the aesthetical appearance of the keris (eventually making them more saleable)... right?!

PS: At least I like them!

I think that is pretty much a given, though many examples aren't as well crafted as your own. I really have no questions as to why they are becoming popular today. I am far more interested in their origin and original intent.