Bukharan (?) saber: another "pseudoshashka:-)

ariel · 30th July 2016, 09:30 PM

Just received it 3 days ago and would like to show it around.
This is what we conveniently called " Bukharan shashka", even though it is not a shashka, and may be not from Bukhara, but from Khiva, Samarkand, or even what is now Afghanistan.

What is great about it, is that it is largely intact, with only some very old repairs to the wooden handle. The scabbard has an unusual covering: both throat and chape are made of leather decorated with "eyelets", reminiscent of the scabbards of Central Asian straight Pesh Kabz ( some call them Karud, but it is a separate story:-)). The midsection of the scabbard is tightly bound in smooth leather stitched together,
The blade looks monosteel, but I haven't had time to polish and etch it, so that's he limit of my description for now. About 3/4 of the blade decorated with incised silver.

But the absolute top is the inscription ( repeated on both sides: Shah Ismail Safavi.

Well, I would love to think that this blade belonged once to Ismail I ( Khatami), the big lozer at Chaldiran, or at least to his grandson Ismail II, the mad psychopath, but.... neither of those are likely. Most likely, of course, it was a kind of dedication to one of them. However, both lived in the 16 century, so, with a lot of luck and wishful thinking, one may posit that the dedication was to the actual Big Kahoona ruling at that time :-))

I wish:-))))

Would love to hear from all of you.

ariel · 30th July 2016, 09:32 PM

#2

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd August 2016, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

#2

This is an interesting blade and accurately translated ... Your assessment on possible birthright is also reasonable ... An excellent item.

Miguel · 2nd August 2016, 08:11 PM

Bukharan (?) saber: another "pseudoshashka

Hi Ariel, what a find, its a beauty. I don't know anything about these weapons but I can see why it may be called a Shaska. It would be great if someone can determine its age. Thank you for sharing.
Regards
Miguel

mahratt · 2nd August 2016, 10:06 PM

It is a known sword, which a very long time trying to sell on e-Bay. Because of this, I had the opportunity to see the sword carefully.

1) I see a new sloppy rivets (1) and parts bolster (2) (photo 1).
2) The shape of the blade and groove on the blade It does not look like shashkas from Bukhara (or Khiva, or Kokand). (Photo 2) But I'll be glad if someone will show me an example of a similar blade from Bukhara.
3) But this blade is similar to the blades of the Afghan shashkas of the late 19th century. (Photo 3)
4) Now a little about decorated with "incised silver". Unfortunately I can only see "koftgari" (3) (Photo 4), this is usually the modern masters "improve" the old blades .... At real shashkas of Bukhara is it looks differently (Photos 5)

Lately, me offer many items from Kabul (Afghanistan). Among other items I was offered "Bukhara shashka". But unfortunately it was modern .... So I politely refused to do an item. The blade was no inscriptions in gold and silver

(Photos 6)

So I would not hurry to congratulate ... I will be very happy if I am wrong.....

ariel · 2nd August 2016, 10:27 PM

Ibrahiim and Miguel,
Thanks for your feedbacks!
Would love to hear from more Forumites.
Not often can one get his hands on a legitimate " bukharan" shashka:-)
It is worth a good professional discussion.

Gavin Nugent · 3rd August 2016, 01:31 AM

Ariel,

I've passed this sword by a couple of times now, passed for the very reason that I think it has been monkey'd with, being either, in the day, or for later bazaar trade (My thoughts are with the later for the hilt change). You may also recall a similar one seen here in Australia 12-18 months ago...which I thought was "more" correct ... It also had similar characteristics that distracted me.

Personally, I do think Mahratt is on point with his assessment.
I personally feel that this sword is, and always was, from the Afghan/Scind regions. See the blade type in this post;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...43&postcount=8

Function; is valid as a weapon. Form; not of Bukhara, much further to the south east IMHO.

Gavin

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 03:04 AM

Gavin,
From the very beginning I mentioned that "Bukhara" was a convenient general term in this case, and that the scabbard with eyelets was quite Afghani. I know about hilt repair. Doesn't bother me very much.
One needs to remember that current designations of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan , Afghanistan etc, meant nothing in the 19 century.
It is just "Central Asia", Khanates pattern, might have been made south of Panj River. The entire North Afghanistan is a Tajik/ Uzbek territory anyway, Remember Northern Alliance?

As you have said it is a fighting sword , with repairs and a very old scabbard made for this blade.
I do not care very much about how lavish, pretty and intact they are, I like mine to be of a " sergeant" grade at the most, with a whiff of stale blood:-) In short, - weapons, not "museum grade" wall decorations.

This one Is right up my alley:-)

mahratt · 3rd August 2016, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

with a very old scabbard

I'm sorry to disappoint the new owner of the sword. However, the scabbard of the sword can not be called a "very old". Note the leather "loop" (1), for which the scabbard should be hanging on a belt (I think it is clear that the chain - it's just a decorative element) (photo 1). Such attachment is not typical either for Central Asia (photo 2), nor for Afghanistan (photo 3). This "leather loop" - useful for a small knife, but not for a large sword ...

Although I will be glad if someone can tell me really old scabbard for the sword of the Central Asia with such a "leather loop"

mahratt · 3rd August 2016, 05:17 AM

I forgot to say. "Chain" in the scabbard - this is one more "brand" of modern masters from Kabul

Here we see the old Afghan shashka with new modern scabbard with a chain.

30th July 2016, 09:30 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bukharan (?) saber: another "pseudoshashka:-) Just received it 3 days ago and would like to show it around. This is what we conveniently called " Bukharan shashka", even though it is not a shashka, and may be not from Bukhara, but from Khiva, Samarkand, or even what is now Afghanistan. What is great about it, is that it is largely intact, with only some very old repairs to the wooden handle. The scabbard has an unusual covering: both throat and chape are made of leather decorated with "eyelets", reminiscent of the scabbards of Central Asian straight Pesh Kabz ( some call them Karud, but it is a separate story:-)). The midsection of the scabbard is tightly bound in smooth leather stitched together, The blade looks monosteel, but I haven't had time to polish and etch it, so that's he limit of my description for now. About 3/4 of the blade decorated with incised silver. But the absolute top is the inscription ( repeated on both sides: Shah Ismail Safavi. Well, I would love to think that this blade belonged once to Ismail I ( Khatami), the big lozer at Chaldiran, or at least to his grandson Ismail II, the mad psychopath, but.... neither of those are likely. Most likely, of course, it was a kind of dedication to one of them. However, both lived in the 16 century, so, with a lot of luck and wishful thinking, one may posit that the dedication was to the actual Big Kahoona ruling at that time :-)) I wish:-)))) Would love to hear from all of you. Attached Images

2nd August 2016, 10:06 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It is a known sword, which a very long time trying to sell on e-Bay. Because of this, I had the opportunity to see the sword carefully. 1) I see a new sloppy rivets (1) and parts bolster (2) (photo 1). 2) The shape of the blade and groove on the blade It does not look like shashkas from Bukhara (or Khiva, or Kokand). (Photo 2) But I'll be glad if someone will show me an example of a similar blade from Bukhara. 3) But this blade is similar to the blades of the Afghan shashkas of the late 19th century. (Photo 3) 4) Now a little about decorated with "incised silver". Unfortunately I can only see "koftgari" (3) (Photo 4), this is usually the modern masters "improve" the old blades .... At real shashkas of Bukhara is it looks differently (Photos 5) Lately, me offer many items from Kabul (Afghanistan). Among other items I was offered "Bukhara shashka". But unfortunately it was modern .... So I politely refused to do an item. The blade was no inscriptions in gold and silver (Photos 6) So I would not hurry to congratulate ... I will be very happy if I am wrong..... Attached Images Last edited by mahratt; 2nd August 2016 at 10:30 PM.

3rd August 2016, 05:17 AM	#10
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I forgot to say. "Chain" in the scabbard - this is one more "brand" of modern masters from Kabul Here we see the old Afghan shashka with new modern scabbard with a chain. Attached Images

30th July 2016, 09:32 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	#2 Attached Images

2nd August 2016, 08:11 PM	#4
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Bukharan (?) saber: another "pseudoshashka Hi Ariel, what a find, its a beauty. I don't know anything about these weapons but I can see why it may be called a Shaska. It would be great if someone can determine its age. Thank you for sharing. Regards Miguel

2nd August 2016, 10:27 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim and Miguel, Thanks for your feedbacks! Would love to hear from more Forumites. Not often can one get his hands on a legitimate " bukharan" shashka:-) It is worth a good professional discussion.

3rd August 2016, 01:31 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ariel, I've passed this sword by a couple of times now, passed for the very reason that I think it has been monkey'd with, being either, in the day, or for later bazaar trade (My thoughts are with the later for the hilt change). You may also recall a similar one seen here in Australia 12-18 months ago...which I thought was "more" correct ... It also had similar characteristics that distracted me. Personally, I do think Mahratt is on point with his assessment. I personally feel that this sword is, and always was, from the Afghan/Scind regions. See the blade type in this post; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...43&postcount=8 Function; is valid as a weapon. Form; not of Bukhara, much further to the south east IMHO. Gavin

3rd August 2016, 03:04 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, From the very beginning I mentioned that "Bukhara" was a convenient general term in this case, and that the scabbard with eyelets was quite Afghani. I know about hilt repair. Doesn't bother me very much. One needs to remember that current designations of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan , Afghanistan etc, meant nothing in the 19 century. It is just "Central Asia", Khanates pattern, might have been made south of Panj River. The entire North Afghanistan is a Tajik/ Uzbek territory anyway, Remember Northern Alliance? As you have said it is a fighting sword , with repairs and a very old scabbard made for this blade. I do not care very much about how lavish, pretty and intact they are, I like mine to be of a " sergeant" grade at the most, with a whiff of stale blood:-) In short, - weapons, not "museum grade" wall decorations. This one Is right up my alley:-)