Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa...

[BSMStar]

Well Spunjer, I guess one man's naga is another man's chicken gizzard.

[BSMStar]

Here is a link to some great sword pics that I have mentioned before, scroll down.... Love those dragons!!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../001969-2.html

[Spunjer]

yup,

concur with ya. nice sundangs in that thread...

[BSMStar]

It seems that Bakunawa was often featured on the Visayan deity hilts... but Bakunawa was not someone you wanted to invite over for dinner. It seems that the Visayans actually wanted to keep Bakunawa away (maybe even at times destroy him). It makes an interesting love/hate relationship. No?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

It seems that Bakunawa was often featured on the Visayan deity hilts... but Bakunawa was not someone you wanted to invite over for dinner. It seems that the Visayans actually wanted to keep Bakunawa away (maybe even at times destroy him). It makes an interesting love/hate relationship. No?

True , but one might wish to wield Bakunawa's powers over his enemies with a sword .

[BSMStar]

Rick,

I understand wanting to have the powers of this charming fellow on your sword and all, but since he has the reputation of being a "home wrecker" & then some... and you would really want to keep him away rather than to invite a visit... and his power resides in the sword... where do you keep your sword at night? If you catch my drift.

[BSMStar]

These pictures have been "floating" around for a while...

Is it a dinosaur, a dragon, a miss-identified animal?

[BSMStar]

Acambaro, Mexico

[BSMStar]

Peru,

South America's Mr. "T"

[BSMStar]

Egypt

[BSMStar]

More from Peru (Incan)

[Tim Simmons]

This used to be in my paternal grandparents house. I always admired it as a little boy. It is really just an old tourist thing but quite striking.



A South American Godzilla. This beats working.

[fearn]

Hi BSMStar,

There are some studies out there about how fossils have been (allegedly) incorporated into ancient art, including some pictures on Greek vases, and legends of the bones of giants (Europe, N America, etc).

That said....how old do you think some of these pots are? There have been pics of dinosaurs around for almost a century now, and I'd be amazed if some forgers....excuse me, indigenous potters working for the faux-archeology/tourist trade...haven't been incorporating some of the images (say, from Charles Knight, or even godzilla) into the "ancient" pots that they sell here and there. Without a good provenance, it's probably better to be skeptical.

As for dragons being misidentified dinosaurs, I suspect they were, in some cases. Thing is, the term "dragon" encompasses a huge range of mythological critters that contain some sort of reptilian element. It can be informative to look at the real diversity in "dragons" especially in Medieval art. Aside from having a reptilian element, it's hard to say exactly what a dragon is: worm, snake, lizard, crocodile? Winged or wingless? Single or multiply-headed? Satan? a treasure guard? in the water, under the earth, flying, etc... you get the idea. It's more of a category than a species, I think.

F

[BSMStar]

Hi Fearn,

Let me try to explain where I am coming from, my comments are not directed toward any one person (just the rambling of an old man).

I do not mean to imply there are not forgeries, or “relics” that were recently made to deceive. Any posted examples that I made were for the sake of stimulating conversation on the idea that … dragon lore is universal, it is found everywhere on the planet.

The modern explanations of dragon origins seem to come from the bias that dragon type animals can not exist, therefore let’s come up with a very ordinary explanation with something we do know about today. We can use the explanation that these people are not too bright, superstitious, misidentify everyday things, you know… place them in the category of those crazy people that see flying saucers and Bigfoot. On close examination, some of these crazy, not too bright, superstitious, misidentifying people happen to be Airline/Air Force Pilots and Biologist with PhDs (in other words, trained experts). Maybe, just maybe we should approach this with a scientific and open mind rather than a precluding bias. New species are commonly discovered and species thought to be extinct for millions of years have been found as well (the Coelacanth for example, thought to be extinct for the last 80 million years - “rediscovered” alive and well in 1938).

Back to the subject of dragons, unless we are willing to accept the idea that all people in all cultures that came before us are not too bright, just superstitious, and are misidentify everyday things… maybe… just maybe, it is worth asking the question how did this universal dragon lore come into being. Keep in mind, we are including cultures like the ancient Egyptians who build the structures on the Giza plateau, a feat with all of our knowledge and wisdom, can not duplicate today. These forgotten people were smart, very smart and their survival depended on their ability to identify what was in the world around them. Just to assume that they were not too bright, just superstitious, or they were misidentifying everyday things is to show either our ignorance or our arrogance. If this was a localized phenomenon, dragon myths would be easier to dismiss… a world wide phenomenon is a bit more difficult to ignore. Something happened that started it all. I hope no one misunderstands and thinks that I am saying the world is crawling with dragons and that they exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that dragons are worthy of further study, if for no other reason than we all seem to have dragons as a common link… sometime in our ancestral past, real or imagined… and they are still very powerful symbols today.

Personally, I would like to learn as much as I can about dragon myths. I believe they should be shared and not lost to time (and forgotten).

Now that you are hypnotized by this rambling... send all those dragon swords to me.

[fearn]

Sure thing 'Star,

One non-existent dragon sword heading your way...

Seriously, though, there are a couple of ways to look at this, in no particular order.

1. There are no living dragons of any size (yes, there are lizards, fish, etc. that are "dragons," but nothing bigger than human). Since I'm one of the "enemy" (a PhD biologist), I'll point you to a little book called Why Big Fierce Animals are Rare. Basically, large carnivores need huge amounts of food, which means they need large home ranges to support that food, which means that they tend to be rare. We currently live in a world that has trouble supporting grizzly bears on land and whales in the water, because humans are consuming such a huge chunk of the available productivity on this planet. A creature such as a dragon (let alone a hypothetical fire-breathing dragon, which requires even more energy for the flames) would have a heck of a time a) surviving, and b) staying hidden while surviving. This is one of the biggest arguments against the existence of things such as the Loch Ness monster: Loch Ness has enough food to support maybe 1 or 2 dragon-sized carnivores. Unless said carnivores are immortal (unlikely), a population of monsters could not maintain itself in that lake.

2. People like telling tall tales, and dragons make a great story, especially for telling to an anthropologist or folklorist who thinks he's far superior to the person telling the story, and most especially if you're getting paid to tell the story...

3. Fossils do turn up. Back before humans were around, there were enormous predators, such as Tyrannosaurus. As I said in my previous post, there are a few archeologists who have been having fun trying to track down references to fossils in old myths and artwork, with some success.

4. For those who believe in kundalini and acupuncture meridians: the chi (prana, etc) energy is often symbolized as a snake, for instance in the doctor's symbol of a snake twined seven times around a rod. Some groups say that the earth has acupuncture lines as well, and these may be symbolized as giant snakes, aka dragons. This is probably New Agey, but it presents a different take on those stories of dragon-slayers, and it puts a different slant on feng shui.

5. Finally, there are natural phenomena such as rivers, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes. In places like China, these phenomena (especially storms and rivers) often are said to have dragon spirits, and no wonder. They periodically tear up the landscape and kill people. If you think of a dragon as a warning symbol (i.e. be careful or die horribly), it makes a lot of sense. We could use it today.

That by no means covers possible origins for dragons. Basically, I don'tthink those who believe in dragons are stupid, but I also don't think they are dull realists either. Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are.

Fearn

[BSMStar]

Hi Fearn,

You are not one of the "enemy." And I cannot compete with a PhD.... I am a lowly Color Chemist.

Paradigms are our best friends and worst enemies; sometimes we get stuck in the “box.” There is a PhD Biologist that is currently looking for “Bigfoot,” although Bigfoot may not be the creature people think it is. Due to a personal experience (sighting), he is looking for evidence for Gigantopithecus, another animal that should not be around today, but may have surviving relatives that crossed over to North America.

Originally Posted by fearn

Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are. Fearn

I would agree, if the legends were localized to a region. A worldwide series of myths with many similarities... is a bit more difficult to discount as being simple imagination. For example, if you were to look at the earth creation myths from all of these areas, they would have little or nothing in common. Then examine their description of dragons; it becomes a bit uncanny to their similarities... unless someone is willing to change “known” history and say that all of these people were in communication with each other (Asia, Africa, India, Europe, Americas, etc.) and shared or spread a myth 1500 to 4000 years ago... there is a mystery worthy of investigation. How did it all happen?

We may never know the answer... and I my be chalk full of blue berry muffins! My real goal was to collect a few of thest stories. But, I guess not.

BTW, did you send it Overnite or Second Day?

[fearn]

I sent that non-existent sword by griffin-post. It's usually pretty quick, unless you have any iron in your house. In that case, they can't deliver....

As for "uncanny similarities" in dragon descriptions, you might want to research that, especially in European illustrations. There's fairly enormous diversity in what constitutes a "dragon," even in Europe. Just for comparison, Bigfoots are pretty near identical: I mean, they only vary from 6-10' in height, with 3-5 toes, depending on what part of the country they're from (three toes in Louisiana, five toes in the pacific northwest). Compared to dragons, they're a single species. I know, I know, they can be duplicated by pranksters in ape suits, and Why Big Fierce Animals Are Rare says that probably couldn't exist, but still....if dragons are real, then those ape dudes have gotta exist. Really.

What has this got to do with swords, I wonder?

Fearn

[BSMStar]

Hmmm. Griffin-post... I will have to check my Hogwart address (now you got me excited in anticipation).

Here is a hint, look at the "serpent" styles. Not one of my favorites though, but the shape does show up the most. Look at what St. George is slaying (Europe)... the feathered serpent of South America, the Nagas of Indonesia, Bakanawa (bent snake) of the Philippines, The Royal Dragons of China, keep looking and you will see them... Pick a continent and one of these will likely be staring back at you. We have just made a quick trip around the world. What are the odds all of these people (who supposedly) had no communication with each other, shared similar mythical creatures (I would not bet on those odds). But, as I said, I can be caulk full of blue berry muffins. Stories can change with each telling (oh yea, well my dragon flies... well my dragon breaths fire... well, to be honest, I was just a baby when the Dead Sea was sick so I don't remember, but the dragon was real scary I tell you). The real question is... were people seeing and identifying some anmimal as a dragon? Or, did dragons become a universal symbol in time forgotten? (And if so, how did it spread).

Remember, Gorillas were thought to be non-existent or mythical a one time. As far at that goes, the best minds thought the earth was flat. Paradigms can be our best friend and worst enemy. Albert Einstein once said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." He also said that “Insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, and to expect different results.” I believe he was suggesting to keep an open mind and to look at the world around us with “new eyes.” We should not get stuck in the same place everyday. It does not mean that we should just believe every tale that we hear… no, but we should truly investigate and see were the data leads us. Otherwise we would still be thinking that we can not travel any faster than 20 MPH, or it would kill us… or that we no longer need a Patent Office because everything that can be invented has been invented… and the Coelacanth died out 80 million years ago, so it cannot possibly exist today. These were yesterday’s paradigms. But honestly, I should not have to convince anyone of "open minded" science. By definition, science is not supposed to be biased.

The connection of dragons to swords is shown on the earlier supplied links, some of the dragons on swords are very stylized (you almost have to know it is a dragon) and some are easy to spot. They seem to be very important to many cultures! Personally, I like them all!

[fearn]

Hi B,

I'll be happy to continue this discussion via PMs, but since this is a sword site, I'll stop my end of the discussion with this.

For anyone else reading this, wikipedia has a useful little article on dragonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
This is useful in that it talks about names and symbolism for dragons in a number of societies.

A counter argument for the physical existence of dragons is the idea of "an instinct for dragons," being proposed by an anthropologist. The basic idea is that dragons incorporate aspects of the major predators on primates (including human ancestors): snakes, eagles, and leopards. Here's the wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Instinct_for_Dragons

Again, pm me if you want to talk about cryptozoology.

F

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

btw, nice sanduko, BSMStar. mind posting a centerfold shot?

Sorry to take so long...

[Bill M]

Naga Basuki!

[Naga Basuki]

Hi Bill and all others!