![]() |
![]() |
#151 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
Dagger with wootz steel blade by Zaqro Nonikashvili.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#152 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
|
![]() Quote:
Granted, some modern masters produce wootz blades, and of relatively decent pattern, but still lacking complexity and effect of old "twootz of legend". |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#153 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
Alex,
King Erekle saber is a modern product with blade by Nonikashvili. The "shams-y" bulat is, of course, on par with Anosov's. Nothing to write home about. |
![]() |
![]() |
#154 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
|
![]() Quote:
Is that closeup really of that "new" sword? I do not think so. I believe it is of old Persian blade on original saber or else. Also, how do we know the "new" blade is actually modern? Did he make several like this, or this is only one he made, or did he use old wootz blade, applied gold inscriptions and fittings and called: "I made it". |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#155 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#156 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
![]()
Have a read through what the fiery beards are saying on crucible steel
![]() http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...howtopic=18364 And what I meant about the pattern visible in the cake, pre-forging out. |
![]() |
![]() |
#157 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,880
|
![]()
Ibrahiim, thank you for that outstanding synopsis bringing the essential theme topic back into the discussion. It has been an amazing discussion bringing together the many facets of this industry and the mysterious watered steel so sought after. It is amazing that even into our times there is research continuing.
I think that the focus on the Russian scientific and craftsmanship factors is most interesting and most likely the case because of the notable instances which pertain to the rediscovery of much of the wootz mystery. While obviously there are a good number of other areas involved, the work by Anosov in the research angles is of course key. As with most industry and craftsmanship, there are likely to be many levels and degrees of quality and production. It is extremely interesting to see these pointed out in the observations and illustrations that continue being presented here. Thank you! |
![]() |
![]() |
#158 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
I contacted Kirill Rivkin and asked him about Anosov's bulat. Kirill inspected Hermitage collection and many other collections of Anosov's blades and has first-hand knowledge.
Here is his e-mail: __________________________________________________ ________ Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:38 PM To: Barkan, Ariel Attachments: Anosov claimed that he reproduced 11 different types of Bulat patterns; the problem is that his definition of what each pattern means is very different from what we tend to use today. For example, there is a sword in Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah. During Anosov's time the definition of wootz was very wide; he personally included Japanese swords in this class, as well as many swords that were classified in old Russian records as "red bulat" - but which today most would not consider to be wootz. But even today people there are still arguments, at the core of which is how separate are the terms "crucible steel" and wootz. If we are to include some very basic crucible steel patterns as wootz, then practically all Sheffield cutlery is wootz, it just needs lots of acid, etc. If we are to concentrate of first class Persian+ patterns from XVIIIth century as the "standard" of wootz, then it is a much more narrow field. Regarding the production of Zlatoust bulat, including those specifically signed as Anosov's bulat, almost all was done in 1841-1845, i.e. a relatively short time period. It is very low contrast (actually mechanical damascus ones from the same period are much more showy), with relatively short, straight lines (typically longer on higher quality swords, but approaching "salt and pepper" on lower end stuff). Sometimes the lines are curving a little. It is not that similar to what we would consider to be a true Persian Taban today. __________________________________________________ ______- In view of this information obtained from a knowledgeable professional, quotations from Anosov's works as well as re-tellings of Anosov's testimonials by other people become highly questionable and cannot be relied upon. Thus, actual documented examples of his "bulat" need to be seen by our own eyes. |
![]() |
![]() |
#159 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]() Quote:
"Indian methode" by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#160 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
Good example. His wootz patterns are unsurpassable.
Once again, it shows the importance of the forging process: minute and pretty "mechanical" dendrites of the ingot are transformed into a complex pattern easily comparable to the best Persian examples. Obviously, Anosov lacked this ability. |
![]() |
![]() |
#161 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#162 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
|
![]() Quote:
As shown earlier in this post, some images of antique wootz were allegedly mixed in the context of modern production and associated with Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili. I think some are too quick to attribute them as produced by the person whose name appears next to the images. To me it is unclear what these close-ups refer to: a restored original blade, a sample of true wootz from another antique blade, or indeed a newly-made blade by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili. The patterns Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili produced, at least what I saw thus far, are of Anosov-like, non-wootz type. Are there any viably convincing sample(s) of his work, besides random snaps of "some wootz", that show real modern wootz pattern produced by him? How sure are you that the 2 yataghan blades and close-up of Kirk-narduban/ zig-zag pattern were forged by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#163 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
Alex,
The only info I have is how they are presented on his site. If the best he could do was "Anosov-like" bulat, I will be disappointed. But there are some examples that are clearly a part of the overall story, from ingot to final product. If true, they are astonishing. I have no direct knowledge to doubt the veracity of his examples that are openly published and discussed by other individuals working with him. BTW, how do you like Kirill's story of Anosov's bulat? |
![]() |
![]() |
#164 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
|
![]()
Ariel,
I can tell you with certainty, that Kirk-Narduban/Zig-Zag pattern is not newly made. The image is of genuine antique wootz blade. I also saw these images on Internet bearing Zaqro Nonikashvili name, for whatever reasons: comparison, showing objects of restoration, etc. The same goes for another wootz pattern shown on the same panel, "mistakenly" attributing it to Mr. Nonikashvili. He's very good and talented restorer, and some images of wootz blades he restored got mixed with the notion that he forged them. As for King Erekle shamshir, I am not convinced that the blade is newly made. I believe the old wootz blade was used, polished and inlaid, and the rest was skillfully recreated. Perhaps someone can prove me wrong. I liked Kirill's write-up about Anosov's bulat (and also his new book - an outstanding work!). Seeing some of Anosov's works personally, Kirill's thesis makes a great deal of sense and credibility, especially the differences of perceptions of wootz and its qualities of ours and Anosov's times, as well as realistic assessment of Anosov's patterns. Totally agree with everything Kirill said. Last edited by ALEX; 25th February 2016 at 11:59 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#165 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
http://www.geostudio.pl/wordpress/?p=830 And a brilliant paper at file:///C:/Users/LENOVO/Downloads/102-103-1-PB%20(1).pdf May I add...and this is not a complaint !! The thread comes in at master class level and leaves a lot of potential students somewhat in its wake...I therefor add a brief note on the background so that members can quickly get up to flying speed on this subject. Here is the rendition from Wikepedia which sets down some basic principles and groundwork viz; Quote"Bulat is a type of steel alloy known in Russia from medieval times; regularly being mentioned in Russian legends as the material of choice for cold steel. The name булат is a Russian transliteration of the Persian word fulad, meaning steel. This type of steel was used by the armies of the nomadic people who were struggling to develop their smithing techniques. Bulat steel was the main type of steel used for swords in the armies of Genghis Khan, the great emperor of the Mongolian Empire. The technique used in making wootz steel has been lost for centuries and the bulat steel used today makes use of a more recently developed technique. Contents 1 History 2 Structure 3 Bibliography 4 See also History The secret of bulat manufacturing was lost by the beginning of the 19th century. Pavel Anosov eventually managed to duplicate the qualities of that metal in 1838, when he completed ten years of study into the nature of Damascus steel swords. Bulat became popular in cannon manufacturing, until the Bessemer process was able to make the same quality steels for far less money. Anosov had entered the Saint Petersburg Mine Cadet School in 1810, where a Damascus steel sword was stored in a display case. He became enchanted with the sword, and was filled with stories of them slashing through their European counterparts. In November 1817 he was sent to the factories of Zlatoust mining region in the southern Urals, where he was soon promoted to the inspector of the "weapon decoration department". Here he again came into contact with Damascus steel of European origin (which was in fact pattern welded steel, and not at all similar), but quickly found that this steel was quite inferior to the original from the Middle East. Anosov had been working with various quenching techniques, and decided to attempt to duplicate Damascus steel with quenching. He eventually developed a methodology that greatly increased the hardness of his steels. Structure Carbon steel consists of two components: pure iron, in the form of ferrite, and cementite or iron carbide, a compound of iron and carbon. Cementite is very hard and brittle; its hardness is about 640 by the Brinell hardness test, whereas ferrite is only 200. The amount of the carbon and the cooling regimen determine the crystalline and chemical composition of the final steel. In bulat, the slow cooling process allowed the cementite to precipitate as micro particles in between ferrite crystals and arrange in random patterns. The color of the carbide is dark while steel is grey. This mixture is what leads to the famous patterning of Damascus steel. Cementite is essentially a ceramic, which accounts for the sharpness of the Damascus (and bulat) steel. Cementite is unstable and breaks down between 600–1100 °C into ferrite and carbon, so working the hot metal must be done very carefully. Bibliography; The Mystery of Damascus Blades, by John D. Verhoeven in Scientific American, No 1, pages 74–79, 2001. History of Metallography: The Development of Ideas on the Structure of Metals before 1890. Cyril S. Smith. MIT Press, 1988. On Damascus Steel. Leo S. Figiel. Atlantis Arts Press, 1991. Archaeotechnology: The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades. J. D. Verhoeven, A. H. Pendray and W. E. Dauksch in JOM: A Publication of the Minerals, Metals and Materials Society, Vol. 50, No. 9, pages 58–64; September 1998. Available at http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html "Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th February 2016 at 02:02 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#166 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
![]() Quote:
Re-reading Jeff Pringle and other smiths, a lot of crucible steel-like material will exhibit the dendritic structure. it can be deformed and made to look like what we would call wootz. Recall the "mill ball" discussions. Here is an excerpt from Jeff Pringle's explanation in that thread. Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
#167 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
http://www.ghadar.in/gjh_html/?q=con...eel-metallurgy Quote“With industrialization and imperial designs of foreign rule a decline set in…….. The iron industry could not withstand the onslaught of the colonial forces working against its interests in a planned way. Once the blast furnaces came into existence in Britain, production started at a much cheaper rate…It could hardly compete with the cheap British pig iron being imported. …. The laws enforcing non-felling of trees in the forest deprived the charcoal based indigenous iron industry of its very basic raw material. It made production of iron impossible. The powerful lobby in Britain succeeded.” The colonizers succeeded in enslaving the Indian sub-continent in every sense of the word by systematically destroying the manufacturing capacity of India. Both the authors also ascribe the decline to the reluctance of master craftsmen to document the technological secrets and to share the knowledge with others except with their favored apprentices. Hence some of the technologies could not be developed further and declined with the decline of the fortunes of the select group of families who knew the process secrets".Unquote. see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th February 2016 at 03:00 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#168 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
This shows that an ingot of crucible made in the proper manner had the necessary ingredients to forge a watered steel blade but Ann Feuerbach in "Crucible Damascus Steel: A Fascination for Almost 2,000 Years" says that not all ingots would necessarily produce a pattern.
Pattern formation in wootz damascus steel swords and blades - John Verhoeven Last edited by estcrh; 25th February 2016 at 03:24 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#169 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#170 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
![]()
Cool thanks Eric.
Greg Obach followed this same process, producing a low-carbon rim around the high-carbon centre. Metallurgy rocks!!! |
![]() |
![]() |
#171 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
I have read several theories about how physical manipulation of the steel during the forging process such as cutting grooves in a crucible steel blade blank was the method used to create certain damascus patterns.
Pattern formation in wootz damascus steel swords and blades - John Verhoeven Last edited by estcrh; 25th February 2016 at 08:17 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#172 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#173 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
It is unfortunate that images of the blades that Anosov made are not available to see. Ann Feuerbach did get to see one of his blades.
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#174 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
Salaams All,
This ladder decoration is the highest decorative form of any blade in this sphere...It is called Kirk Narduban. I have seen some interesting descriptions of such fine work several of which are signed Assad Allah e.g. from http://armsandantiques.com Quote"The blade is forged from deep and rich kirk narduban forged wootz with a hardened dark edge and overlaid with koftgari decoration signed Assaddulah, likely apocryphal, though the quality of the wootz and the forging is an indication of a highly skilled smith".Unquote. https://www.google.com/search?q=Kirk...sm=93&ie=UTF-8 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th February 2016 at 05:50 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#175 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#176 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]() Quote:
Ibrahiim, This blurb from Wiki contains so many silly errors that I am sorely tempted not to use Wiki again even for a question whether tigers are vegetarians :-)))) Mongols of 13th century had no wootz ( bulat) Nobody, EVER made barrels of firearms from wootz. Anosov's bulat process did not depend on quenching. He did not increase hardness of bulat: all "bulats" ( wootz) have Rockwell C hardness in the range between 20 and 35. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#177 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]() Quote:
Any Tabans or Khorasans? :-))) |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#178 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
Another reference about creating a specific pattern by manipulating the crucible steel blade blank during forging.
Last edited by estcrh; 25th February 2016 at 08:18 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#179 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
![]()
Estcrh:
Kirk and rose are not inherent wootz patterns. They are artificially- created distortions in the underlying wootz pattern. If the blade is not wootz ( or, at the very least, mechanical damaskus) no cuttings, grindings etc will help. I am sure you know it, but I am always surprised and annoyed when some sources list different kinds of wootz as " Sham, Khorasan, Taban, and the most prized of all, - Kirk Narduban" :-) |
![]() |
![]() |
#180 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
Gavin |
|
![]() |
![]() |
|
|