Indian Dhal help

RobertGuy · 30th August 2015, 11:23 AM

Hello all, this is my first post here and thought I would share , and ask some questions about, a recently purchased Indian Dhal. Purchased from the world's favourite auction site, the seller described it as:

''Old mughal Dhal with religious? Chiselwork/Engravings.Very nice piece and in good condition. Probably from 1800s maybe earlier. Solid shield.''

I suspect it is late 1800s or even more recent rather than earlier. The shield is steel, 12.25 inches in diameter and weighs 2 lbs. The reverse is covered in blue cloth. I have made my own leather cushion and straps to make it a functional piece. I have posted on other forums but I am getting nowhere with the script on the shield which I think is Hindi (but could be any sub-continent language or even Arabic.) I have tried to separate out the script to make it clearer and would be very grateful if anybody here can translate the panels. They might of course just be decorative panels with no meaning. Thanks in advance for any help or opinions.

RobertGuy · 30th August 2015, 04:44 PM

Sorry, not used to the image upload system here yet. These should have been included.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Hello all, this is my first post here and thought I would share , and ask some questions about, a recently purchased Indian Dhal. Purchased from the world's favourite auction site, the seller described it as:

''Old mughal Dhal with religious? Chiselwork/Engravings.Very nice piece and in good condition. Probably from 1800s maybe earlier. Solid shield.''

I suspect it is late 1800s or even more recent rather than earlier. The shield is steel, 12.25 inches in diameter and weighs 2 lbs. The reverse is covered in blue cloth. I have made my own leather cushion and straps to make it a functional piece. I have posted on other forums but I am getting nowhere with the script on the shield which I think is Hindi (but could be any sub-continent language or even Arabic.) I have tried to separate out the script to make it clearer and would be very grateful if anybody here can translate the panels. They might of course just be decorative panels with no meaning. Thanks in advance for any help or opinions.

Salaams RobertGuy...May we see the business end front of this shield...It may offer clues... Meanwhile the Hindu Script which may be upside down arabic ...we will have a look at...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th August 2015, 09:42 PM

I am fully with Ibrahiim.
What you show may be interesting and it may not be - as you show an unclear picture of the back of the shield.
You dont show close upse of of the inscriptions, and you dont show the front of the shield.
How do you think any of us could/would give any oppinion?
Regards
Jens

AJ1356 · 30th August 2015, 10:18 PM

If you take the pictures, rotate them 180 degrees and then repost them with the frontal pics, and we'll be able to do something about it.

RobertGuy · 30th August 2015, 11:10 PM

My apologies to everyone. I'm having trouble getting used to the file uploader and file sizes. These pictures should have been included.

ward · 31st August 2015, 05:38 PM

It is modern and has been artificially aged. The script looks Arabic but probably is done by a non Arabic speaker for looks.

RobertGuy · 31st August 2015, 06:19 PM

Ward
Thank you for that, I rather suspected as much. The mounts for the handles did not seem right for an old piece. I'll put it down as decorative and functional but not antique.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2015, 08:19 PM

Whilst this is a quite clever souk item probably made recently it offers the opportunity to encourage a collector in the early stages of collecting and advice for some who are a bit more experienced but if they were honest would agree that they too had stumbled on certain objects... There are some very prestigious museums ...like the Wallace that have made mistakes with authenticity ....after all what is a forgery? I know a lot of collectors who have been wrong footed by such items...Muscat has been hoodwinking people for the better part of half a century with these and even cleverer efforts. Fake armour adorns a lot of great halls in the UK and elsewhere....

Look carefully at the face of this shield and you will see the faint lines of concentric circles allowing the pattern to be accurately drawn and then chased with mallet and chisel. Often these pieces have a central deep dot caused by the lathe on which the pattern was applied or spun. Spinning can go back to the 11 th/ 12 th Century... The individual strikes can be seen under the scope on the shield showing it as new...The hammered heads fixing the brass rosettes are fresh. It has no patina and no wear consistent with it trying to be say 19th Century.

..but Robertguy dont worry about that ... scoop up a few books at the local library or get on line and in no time at all you will have the knowledge to go and get a real one ... Everybody makes similar mistakes .... well done on the pictures .

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ward · 31st August 2015, 08:29 PM

No disagreement every collector or dealer I know has made mistakes, including me. It is part of ongoing education.

30th August 2015, 11:23 AM	#1
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Indian Dhal help Hello all, this is my first post here and thought I would share , and ask some questions about, a recently purchased Indian Dhal. Purchased from the world's favourite auction site, the seller described it as: ''Old mughal Dhal with religious? Chiselwork/Engravings.Very nice piece and in good condition. Probably from 1800s maybe earlier. Solid shield.'' I suspect it is late 1800s or even more recent rather than earlier. The shield is steel, 12.25 inches in diameter and weighs 2 lbs. The reverse is covered in blue cloth. I have made my own leather cushion and straps to make it a functional piece. I have posted on other forums but I am getting nowhere with the script on the shield which I think is Hindi (but could be any sub-continent language or even Arabic.) I have tried to separate out the script to make it clearer and would be very grateful if anybody here can translate the panels. They might of course just be decorative panels with no meaning. Thanks in advance for any help or opinions. Attached Images

30th August 2015, 11:10 PM	#6
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	My apologies to everyone. I'm having trouble getting used to the file uploader and file sizes. These pictures should have been included. Attached Images

30th August 2015, 04:44 PM	#2
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Sorry, not used to the image upload system here yet. These should have been included.

30th August 2015, 09:42 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am fully with Ibrahiim. What you show may be interesting and it may not be - as you show an unclear picture of the back of the shield. You dont show close upse of of the inscriptions, and you dont show the front of the shield. How do you think any of us could/would give any oppinion? Regards Jens

30th August 2015, 10:18 PM	#5
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	If you take the pictures, rotate them 180 degrees and then repost them with the frontal pics, and we'll be able to do something about it.

31st August 2015, 05:38 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It is modern and has been artificially aged. The script looks Arabic but probably is done by a non Arabic speaker for looks.

31st August 2015, 06:19 PM	#8
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Ward Thank you for that, I rather suspected as much. The mounts for the handles did not seem right for an old piece. I'll put it down as decorative and functional but not antique.

31st August 2015, 08:19 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Whilst this is a quite clever souk item probably made recently it offers the opportunity to encourage a collector in the early stages of collecting and advice for some who are a bit more experienced but if they were honest would agree that they too had stumbled on certain objects... There are some very prestigious museums ...like the Wallace that have made mistakes with authenticity ....after all what is a forgery? I know a lot of collectors who have been wrong footed by such items...Muscat has been hoodwinking people for the better part of half a century with these and even cleverer efforts. Fake armour adorns a lot of great halls in the UK and elsewhere.... Look carefully at the face of this shield and you will see the faint lines of concentric circles allowing the pattern to be accurately drawn and then chased with mallet and chisel. Often these pieces have a central deep dot caused by the lathe on which the pattern was applied or spun. Spinning can go back to the 11 th/ 12 th Century... The individual strikes can be seen under the scope on the shield showing it as new...The hammered heads fixing the brass rosettes are fresh. It has no patina and no wear consistent with it trying to be say 19th Century. ..but Robertguy dont worry about that ... scoop up a few books at the local library or get on line and in no time at all you will have the knowledge to go and get a real one ... Everybody makes similar mistakes .... well done on the pictures . Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

31st August 2015, 08:29 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	No disagreement every collector or dealer I know has made mistakes, including me. It is part of ongoing education.