The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...

I almost forgot to include the following dancing sword style which is essentially straight and certainly as flexible ...and you will be delighted to hear even more deadly looking for the imagined combat role for which it was never used. This is simply a dancing sword variant with a more vicious blade. It is said that the blade was bathed in blood etc etc ... which is more connected to the hype than reality ... but it is worth looking at since it does belong to the same family of Omani dancing swords....another heraldic pageantry sword. The terminology in the Richardson and Dorr Herritage document from which I borrowed the picture below is "Flambouyant".. I owned a few and picture one at #68.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

Salaams Jim... True indeed and the same goes over here... I can show loads of prop studio pictures with swords 'n daggers added to clients ... It was part of the business... In fact I was just diving on some detail about Zanzibar and noted that the Goan immigrants chose photography as one of their skills ...along with jewellery making and musical instrument makers!

On the subject of Tippu Tip or Tippu Tib and avoiding the Disneyesque terms others seem to be slapping on him...the pictures show him singly at a younger age with a curved Omani Kattara and in the other picture much later on the right of a line of 4 sitting next to Wali Mohd...a local governor... from which he may well have borrowed the straight dancing sword...or switched it.

I show Wali Mohd singly at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at #253 with the sword that Tippu Tib is holding in the 4 man picture..

The chap on the left of the 4 man line..I have in another picture below and he could be the brother or uncle of the ruler...for what its worth. The reference is from the Getty Images website and the character is third person from the right and perhaps, as I say, a relative of the Ruler.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Sancar

Here are pictures of two swords from İstanbul Military Museum. Both are signed and there are no questions and doubts about their origin and age. I believe this will give new clues about the subject at hand(I am sorry that photos are a little dark):

First one is a Memlük sword from 13th century:







Second one is an Eyyubi sword from 12th century; made for Necmeddin Eyyub:







I know two little about the topic at hand(and I thank both participants of the discussion, I learned a lot from this topic) but to my uneducated eyes, these sword look very very similar to "dancing swords" mentioned here. They even have rounded tips. (I also want to add Indian straight sword Khanda also has rounded tips yet they are battle swords)

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Like this I think.....

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib..

The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only.

[spiral]

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, From time a revue or summary of structures allows clarity, focus, and direction and directs readers at the supporting posts and so that their research may be enhanced. I place the following for that purpose in respect of The Omani Dancing Sword.

Introduction.
The ensemble of Omani Swords comprises in order of oldest first as under;
1. The Omani Battle Sword AKA Sayf Al Yamaani.
2. The Omani Kattara.
3. The Omani Sayf (Sayf); The dancing sword.

*4. The Omani Shamshiir. Placed 4th but the date of its inauguration may place it as older that some of the swords above I place it here with an asterisk. . for later closer analysis date wise.

In order to address the complex questions which inevitably arise out of the contentious issue involving Omani swords and their peculiar provenance I place a summary of investigation so far on the details and influences that bring us to this point in proceedings and to remind readers that prior to these considerations Forum had very scant material to hand and thus at present Library is well served by the now vast amount of material to hand.
For the complete story the following need to be read since there is the inevitable interlinking through history of forms 1, 2 and 3 above and to which I add TVVs fine introduction to the problem in his Kattara for Comments. Thus the threads to study are:

1. Kattara for comments.
2. The Old Omani Battle Sword.
3. The Omani Dancing Sword.
4. The Omani Kattara.
5. The Omani Shamshiir.

The issue.
The main bones of contention are understandable…The fact is that the Omani Dancing sword looks warlike … as warlike now as it did to the few Europeans who reported upon seeing it in the early 19th C. The fact that out there in the world abroad there are many Omani looking swords of dance with stiff blades which must therefore have been for fighting or fighting and dancing…or were they?

Thus to assist members in this fog I propose the following broad based summary so that the issue may be clearer..This is not the final proof nor does it comprise the silver bullet solution but offers comprehensive discussion and details which though it does not point to a check mate does point the finger at probable cause… Maybe we will never produce the absolute answer… I would be amazed if we did since that is often the nature of Ethnographic research as is the time honoured technique of creating a possible theory based on what we are seeing countered by other well thought out and researched alternative proposals occasionally presented on a pretty warmed up cauldron of well meaning sparks and the occasional flame on the anvil of Forum discussion…i.e. If you think you know another cause lets hear it !

I list a number of topics that I have ventured into concerning Omani swords which on their own assume notes of interest but when grouped together offer a compendium of potential evidence, though, without absolute proof but which are the essence of the detail amassed in this regard.

The Omani Dancing Sword . AKA The Omani Sayf (Saif)
“Between 1744 and perhaps about 1810 this sword was designed as a heraldic dynasty and salutation sword carried by all Palace Guards or Askeris in Oman. The hilt is identical to the single edged Omani Kattara but the blade is flexible and spatulate tipped for its main role in The Traditions… It has continued in that role with the same Dynasty since its design until today. No battle has been identified in which it was used to fight with”. Because of some enterprising souk merchants who from 1970 (when Oman emerged from the virtual dark ages) swords with stiff blades have appeared as rehilts in various souks but mainly at Mutrah where it is estimated that in over 40 years thousands have been sold to tourists and which have somewhat corrupted collections all over the world..

To support this statement I offer the following documented information viewable at the threads above for inspection summarized as follows viz;


The 10 Point Summary. The Omani Dancing Sword.

1. This straight flexible sword whose hilt was designed from the curved Kattara was given the privilege of being accompanied by the Terrs Shield usually carried into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword...It was sharp on both edges and round tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with its forerunner; The Omani Battle Sword (the two have been compared favourably at thread.) Its purpose was for pageantry and Dynastic Salutation only. Not for fighting.

2. A newspaper report by a sword maker in Ras Al Khaimer delved into the question of fighting with this sword and in a comprehensive column totally refuted the point… Neither was there any reaction by local sword or history experts concerning the report; for good reason perhaps? In no museum is the sword refered to as a Battle Sword...and in the Al Ain collection of Arab "weapons" it does not appear.

3. The vast and informative but almost unrecognised in ethnographic circles, Funun, a genre of pageant, dance and battle re-enactment pantomime forming the unwritten, handed down traditions vital to the study of Omani history and swords...and seen as a complete works at thread...This entire genre is completely foreign to normal researchers abroad who too often miss its importance. The dancing sword is The Funun instrument of Dynastic salutation… The two are inexorably linked.

4. In respect of the Zanzibar situation The slave trade, and the link to The Slavers Sword...much has been investigated including the important notes from H. Ingrams the secretary to the Ruler at Zanzibar and the significance of the Manga (Omani) dancers and their dancing swords opposed to the African and native Zanzibari equipment. In parallel to that it has been suggested that the Kattara originated in central Africa perhaps influenced by the Mendingo but anyway the long Omani Hilt appears to have been technically transferred to the new dancing sword … and may thus have been introduced via Zanzibar.

5. The manufacturing link of the Zutoot and other centres such as Nizwa, Sanau, Muscat...It is recorded that the wandering Gypsy of Oman who were a mixed Gypsy traveling people from probably the North West Frontier of India now incorporated into Omani tribes but entirely wandering in nature prior to 1970…who made dancing swords on Commission…Nowhere in the transcripts is there actual evidence of European trade blades linked to the dancing sword however the application of fullers may be a European aspect overlooked. I have no evidence of dancing swords carrying European markings... unlike the trade blades that made up the curved Omani Kattara situation which were virtually all European. If the Omani leadership wanted a dual purpose weapon / dancer why would they not perhaps simply have evolved the curved Kattara into that role ?

6. The strong influence of Said bin Sultan to whom the finger points as the motivator behind the dancing sword as Heraldic and Pageant. It was this ruler … during his reign who saw the introduction of several other iconic items worn in honour of the dynasty …viz The Royal Khanjar and the Royal Turban. The Royal Khanjar or the royal Hilt more correctly is also echoed in the same hilt being allocated to the Old Omani Battle Sword perhaps this is the third example during his reign of this kind of recognition… Could it be that the fourth is the adoption of the Omani Sayf; The Omani Dancing Sword with its very flexible blade for Pageants and Heraldic dynastic salutation.

7. Great care has been taken to identify the rehilting situation since 1970 till today prevalent in Mutrah Souk and responsible for several thousand swords drifting out to world collectors. It can be seen at thread where these originated and that because they have stiff blades they conveniently sidestepped local buyers because they cannot be buzzed in the air … a precondition for dancing swords… and because they appear from 1970 could hardly have been used here in 19th C battles…in Oman. These are Ethiopian blades and clearly identified on thread…

8. The mimic fight.. This has thrown more people than most things with this sword… The mimic fight is explained at thread and isn’t a fight but a one point scoring contest where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb of the opponents shield hand…end of contest. This is made possible by the flexible sword having a flat spatulate tip…Mimic fighting was not a bad way for guards to keep fit requiring dexterity, speed, balance and agility…It is part of the Funun.

9. The demise of blades owing to gunpowder. It is interesting that gunpowder eroded swords and spears but didn’t affect the dancing sword…why? The thread continues to examine its other employment not as a fighting sword but in its guard role as a Dynasty marker … supporter of the ruling Sultan and anchored in the traditions in the special genre reserved to honour the swordsmen of history. That is why it never vanished as did the spear and largely the Old Omani Battle sword though it survived being honoured with a royal hilt.

10. The Omani dancing sword is a weak bladed very flexible flat sword… It is no match for a hefty battle sword… It bends easily through 90 degrees and would be quickly overcome by a proper thick stiffer blade…The thread refers to Guards that carried it and in one sketch their spears and abu futtila … the real killers can be seen… but it is in what we do not see that is also important,… The Fort armouries with dozens of Old Omani Battle Swords for issue in time of strife… The guards duties which included pageantry and salutations meant they needed to have available their parade swords at all times… The Omani Dancing Sword filled that bill did it not?

Conclusion;
The finger of suspicion as to who brought on the design of sword known as The Omani Dancing Sword may be leveled at Said Bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856 and thread identifies how he or his reign brought about other dynastic items. This pushes back the potential date of inauguration to after 1804…and it is further possible that the diffusion from palace guards to general population may also be later…date unspecified as yet. This is unchartered territory but under scrutiny…The National Museum which specializes in the Rule of Said bin Sultan may have some light to throw…and I shall endeavor to press them on the subject.
It could be, however, that the First ruler in this Dynasty who was an Immam was initially its instigator in about 1744...which also makes sense since it is a Dynastic Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".


Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)...

Thus I show the Mwarcha Zanzibari dance below to compare swords, dress, style and tribal differences.etc. with the more regimented straight line formal salutation and dance of the Omani style with dancing swords and shields. Dress is quite formal including Khanjar.



Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? .

Obviously.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Of course not, as you know I don't agree with your hypothesis.

I am aware of the modern fake Oman swords sold by some Omani websites & the fakes you have posted pictures of. I though you possessed more than 2 though?

Anyway my question was serious before you distracted me with your Mantra.

I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Spiral

P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

Greeting Ibrahim...

As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Salaams Spiral, You speak of a book written in 1600... can you show me some of the extracts as I don't have that reference... I need to see what they mean at the time by "Yemen"( quite often Yemen meant or included the coastal Horn Of Africa)...and to look at sketches or descriptions of the weapons..(since I have no idea what is in the book).

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy from http://archive.org/stream/tuzukijaha...auoft_djvu.txt though I did note that there were many discrepancies particularly in the many translations of this work... nevertheless I would like to see the context.

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }.

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky

A bargain for you at less than $250.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy..

mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.
.

Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

].

Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky

A bargain for you at less than $250.





mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!





Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.



Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?






Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

Salaams all~ The question is posted requiring proof of H Ingrams the secretary to the Royal House in Zanzibar and an expert on the region just after the turn of the Century and probably in about 1910 for a book published a few years later in which he observes a dance in Zanzibar... quite specific ...in that only Omani dancers were involved..... In fact it is the Razha which as all Omani people recognise as being from the Genre of weapon dances from the Funun..which only uses straight Omani Swords of the flexible variety since its inception in about the early 1800s. That part of the Genre is called the Razha. Thus his stattement stands as correct...viz;

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

Furthur references may be checked by working back from my post at #189.

In Reference to a note Jahingar in Tuzuk ostensibly quoted in Eggerton.
The statement that the old Yemeni world encompassed Oman is understandably niaive ...at the time of the book around 1600 which in itself, though, fascinating, no matter which copy you may have in front of you (but I have to say 250 us dollars seems a lot since it is a free download otherwise) it has rather the reputation of being vague in places and innacurate in others~ not least because of the nature of the work as a sort of Royal Travelogue...and the trophies gained thereon... and since there are many translations/hiccups along the way. Whilst it may well be essential reading for Indian arms and Armour and history it remains a very blurred, minor reference and not one penciled in my margin in this regard.

However taking that copy as gospel for what its worth the statement about Yemeni or southern blades is somewhat misleading...because it could have referred to a host of countries production including Sri Lanka. It may well have meant some Horn of Africa blade as that was called Yemen on ancient maps in that timeframe 1600... or even European blades. There is absolutely no factual intensity which underpins flexible blades coming from Oman at that time..None whatsoever!

I feel certain that the National Museum would have noticed..

Naturally we are all alert at the potential of Hadramauti blades..and not least because the old Omani Battle Sword is also known as the Sayf Yamaani...quite possibly a Hadramaut blade or from the ancient town of Izki (in Oman) which has a quarter called Yemen; I personally suspect Hadramaut for the Old Omani Battle Sword*, though, there is no connection apparent for the Dancing sword from a manufacturing viewpoint. See Zutoot.

*I remind readers that the Old Omani Battle Sword was very rigid. (See The Old Omani Battle Sword.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. .

And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....



And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of W.H. Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples, in 1931. ( I believe it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British period in Zanzibar and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule, see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth, Zanzibar under the Foreign Office 1890-1913, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet, A History of the Arab State ofZanzibar, London,1978,
M.L.Lofchie,Zanzibar. Background to Revolution, Princeton Univ. Press, 1965. See also theaccounts given by R.N.Lyne,Zanzibar inContemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,1905,

and W.H.Ingrams, Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience as an administrator from 1919 and actually later in Hadramaut where he displayed brilliant service ~in "Kattara for comments" ~though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought derogatory questions to this table in what Ingrams himself would perhaps have described as slightly inflamatory. Humbug even? Personally I wouldn't like to comment since rule 1 is quite sufficiently clear, though, the comment on fabrication is hardly one of complicit teamwork and honourable discussion for which I thought as participants we had signed up to....however....

Some disagreement appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) through H. Ingrams statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork; reported previously on Forum as "Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes"~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced by Omanis and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield; The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges, flexible and mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; W H Ingrams was a well respected historian known in his day for his brilliant rendition on "Zanzibar and its Peoples" which I outline as;

Quote" This reprint of this celebrated classic text on Zanzibar makes available again the remarkably comprehensive account of the Island of Cloves, written by W. H. Ingrams and first published in 1931. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is essentially an historical ethnography of Zanzibar. The author describes local legends, and their important social function in recording and constituting the oral history of the island. Ingrams' extensive observations and personal experiences - both on the main island of Unguja and Pemba and the smaller islands which make up Zanzibar - provide a detailed and lively account of society at the time and make engaging reading. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is a comprehensive work, perhaps daunting on account of its size, but a joy to read and a rich resource." Said El-Gheithy, The Sayyida Salme Foundation."Unquote.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of Wh Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples in 1931. ( I beklieve it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British
period in Zanzibar
and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule,
see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth,
Zanzibar under
the Foreign Office 1890-1913
, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet,
A History of the Arab State of
Zanzibar
, London,
1978,
M.L.Lofchie,
Zanzibar. Background to Revolution
, Princeton Univ.
Press, 1965. See also the
accounts given by R.N.Lyne,
Zanzibar in
Contemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,
1905,

and W.H.
Ingrams,
Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples
, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience in "Kattara for comments" though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring...from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought to this table.

Some offence appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) in his statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork which stated Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced in Oman and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield. The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges and Flexible mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well that makes the water Muddier but just feature more untruths. Disguised within a list of references.


I have great respect for W. Ingrams work About Zanzibar. Its not his statements or words I doubt....

You mention Chapter 39 pages 399

chapter 37 starts on page 399

it covers music & dance as you say.

No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

Chapter 38 on page 411 continues about music & dance.
No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

{Although it does mention a song sang by the genital mutilator while sharpening his knife. "to frighten"}

Chapter 39 is about nature & starts on page. 423.

If you say your not making up falsehoods & lies.

Then please supply the necessary quote about your statement..

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

Because the truth is, Its not true. Its not in the book

You made it up. It is a lie.

Ingram never said it.

Spiral

[David]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

[A.alnakkas]

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

Salaams khanjar 1. Why not?.. The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit. Most of what these guards did was salutation and pageant. They needed the Heraldic item to do all of them.

As a physical effort I agree done to intensity the mimic fight could have been quite energetic and maybe they got pumped up doing it... but they didnt go off and attack anyone with these wobbly blades and they didn't have another sword like it with a hard blade... but if a sword was needed... a quick diversion down the Fort Armoury and draw a Battle Sword .. or in fact no swords .. Guns only.. The Abufuttila..and/or spears.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...
.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men. Do you really expect that your 7 points can be seriously viewed? Have you done any research? Produce a counter play. Why would I not want to uncover a potential battle sword? I can tell you for sure that if another battle sword existed based upon the dancer design I would already have shown it... so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

I spent the last week with the beni kaab and they all had a good laugh when I explained the story. The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

For you however I invite you to drop in on Muttrah ... I will show you the workshops and introduce you to the artisans who did the switches... Nothing wrong with that if you know the souk ...They have done this down the ages... Its what sells there...You know?...business.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men.

You have been disrespecting members who have debated you all the time. I guess perhaps, you should listen to your own advice. And I guess, thinking an argument is bullshit counts as disrespectful to a person? Well, thats interesting.

As for your summary, it is exactly the repetition of arguments that make no sense.

Originally Posted by IBrahim al Balooshi

so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

If replying to silly hypothesis about a particular sword requires a real thesis in reply, I doubt there will be any research.

But thanks for the advice, you never know what might happen!

Originally Posted by IBrahim al Balooshi

The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

The examples you have shown are brand new or new dressed old blades. Everyone with experience in the field of antiques can tell the difference.

Now examples that belong in many western collections (and Arab ones, which I plan to bring out photos of soon) are better dressed, have rich mounts that are simply a hassle to make for a fake yet you claim those are fake without producing any evidence.

Btw, we are still waiting for an antique flexible saif, all the ones we saw coming from you are new.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .



You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.



And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral, I refer you to my 10 point plan but I do reply to your post in the hope that you observe the common courtesy demanded of this Forum since from my viewpoint I have studied this subject thoroughly whilst others have only scratched the surface... and I have always been aware of the heated nature of this discussion... heat is ok... when it's correctly turned up... The hot anvil of discussion.

There is a vast omount of work to be done on this sword both in and out of museums and documents and I must have driven thousands of miles around the country finding out the facts. Oman is a country that only ventured into the modern world in 1970... much is still undocumented fully.

Forum is the first priority insofar as I am concerned and if I have uncovered a demon... a sword that has no place in the countrys history then I will report just that... and I have done. It's a non starter... It's a red herring ... It doesn't and never did exist...I wish it did ...

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.