A Very Different Philippine Dagger

[Robert]

Hello everyone, this is the latest addition to my collection. With the horse hoof pommel I would say that this is from Ilocos Norte. Now on to the odd part of this. The lower concave side of the blade is the sharpened side while the top side is flat from hilt to tip. Then there is the angle of the hilt itself. At first I thought that the tang might have been bent at some point, but now that it has arrived and I have had time to inspect it I found that the back of the blade is cut to intentionally set the hilt at this odd angle. There is some bug damage to the horn hilt and the pommel cap and band are missing, but these can easily be replaced. Has anyone seen anything like this before and can can anyone give me an idea of what the purpose of such a blade configuration would be ???

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

Looks like the hilt is on backwards.

[Robert]

Looks like the hilt is on backwards.

Hello Jose, I do not believe that it is. If you were to put the hilt on the opposite of the way it is now not only would you have to bend the tang to make it fit through the hilt it would then position the cutting edge on the top and the unsharpened side on the bottom. In the above photos the sharpened edge is the one next to the ruler.

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello everyone, this is the latest addition to my collection. With the horse hoof pommel I would say that this is from Ilocos Norte. Now on to the odd part of this. The lower concave side of the blade is the sharpened side while the top side is flat from hilt to tip. Then there is the angle of the hilt itself. At first I thought that the tang might have been bent at some point, but now that it has arrived and I have had time to inspect it I found that the back of the blade is cut to intentionally set the hilt at this odd angle. There is some bug damage to the horn hilt and the pommel cap and band are missing, but these can easily be replaced. Has anyone seen anything like this before and can can anyone give me an idea of what the purpose of such a blade configuration would be ???

Best,
Robert

Hi Robert:

This is a very unusual blade form for a Filipino knife. I suspect it comes from elsewhere and was rehilted in the Philippines, or perhaps it is a copy of a knife from elsewhere. I'm not familiar with any similar indigenous knife from Luzon. The horse hoof hilt is not especially helpful in defining a region for its origin as one can readily find this style of hilt on working knives throughout Luzon, and indeed they are now widespread throughout the islands. Whether that style started in the Ilocos Region, and spread elsewhere, is unclear.

The shape of the blade reminds me of some of the northern Indian, (Indo-Persian) armor-piercing variety designed to pierce chain mail. The reverse sharpened edge might indicate a backwards hilt mounting, and could be the most logical explanation, but there are occasional knives in the SE Asian region that have this configuration and do not appear to be mistakes. I have one knife from Vietnam (Hmong) that has this arrangement and the handle is made from the ulna bone of a monkey. I have another from Indonesia (probably Sumatran)--I will look up the name for it.

As to what it was used for, that's not obvious. I don't think it is a tool. If this is correctly mounted, then it is designed for stabbing and slashing upwards--basically a gutting knife. Nasty, nasty.

Correction--I now see the most recent post indicating that the back edge is not sharpened. In which case, the hilt is most likely correctly mounted and it's just a wicked stabbing blade...

Ian.

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

very interesting dagger, never seen something similar.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Ian, Thank you for your thoughts on this very different dagger. I am in total agreement on this being a very nasty fighting weapon as I can see no other use for a blade designed in this style.

Hi Detlef, Yes this is a very unique piece and hopefully someone will either have seen something similar to this or possibly have a photo of another of this style.

I will be posting more photos of this later after I have had a chance to replace the missing brass band and hilt cap. I will also be filling the bug holes and tunnels in the horn hilt in an attempt to help stabilize and preserve it.

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

If what you say is correct, then Ian may have a good point. Definitely weird for a Filipino piece.

[Rick]

Robert, any chance that this is a recycled oversharpened blade ?

[Robert]

Robert, any chance that this is a recycled oversharpened blade ?

Hello Rick, At this point from what I can see I do not think it is, a recycled blade perhaps (waste not what not) but being oversharpened to the point of ending up with this shape I do not think so. To me it has all the appearances of being intentionally made in this form. Later when I remove the grip for repair and can inspect the entire blade thoroughly I might be able to tell more. Here is an interesting link that was sent to me on knife fighting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSxFJ2et4s Imagine if two of these were being used in this manner.

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Robert:

On further reflection, I think this is a rehilted rencong. Notice how the tang arises from the back edge, like a rencong. And assume that the usual file work at forte on a rencong has been ground away. Now you have a slightly concave cutting edge (as on most rencong), a dorsal tang (as on most rencong), and a nasty stabber (as are most rencong).

Just a thought.

Regards,

Ian

[Robert]

Hello Ian. I truly appreciate your help in trying to identifying this unusual piece. While your suggestion that this could be a re-hilted rencong blade sounds possible the tang on this does not arise from the back edge of the blade like a rencong, but is like those found on most blades from Luzon and is located only slightly off-center of the blade. The tang is also quite long as it does extend completely through the hit and the now missing butt plate before being peened over in the usual manner for a blade from this location. However, I can see where it might have been specially made for someone in the style of a rencong to suite their personal preferences. A lot of the fun in these odd items is in trying to identify them after they have been found.

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Ian. I truly appreciate your help in trying to identifying this unusual piece. While your suggestion that this could be a re-hilted rencong blade sounds possible the tang on this does not arise from the back edge of the blade like a rencong, but is like those found on most blades from Luzon and is located only slightly off-center of the blade. The tang is also quite long as it does extend completely through the hit and the now missing butt plate before being peened over in the usual manner for a blade from this location. However, I can see where it might have been specially made for someone in the style of a rencong to suite their personal preferences. A lot of the fun in these odd items is in trying to identify them after they have been found.

Best,
Robert

Robert:

Yes, I agree about the tang not being right on the back edge. However, the rencong has a bolster in that position, and it would be necessary to grind that back to create a tang for the new hilt. In the hands of a skilled cutler, with a decent grinding wheel, reshaping the bolster and making it continuous with the existing tang would be a simple job--an hour or two at most. If necessary the length of the tang could be augmented by welding on a small piece of rod. Similarly, grinding off the stylized garuda at forte would be a simple and quick task. Why remove that file work? Well, as a good Christian Filipino, I might not want that "Islamic" iconography on my knife; or I might be afraid that it would snag my clothing if I wanted to get it out in a hurry.

I believe I could make these changes in my home workshop--but probably not as skillfully as might have been done here.

Ian.

[kai]

I beg to differ, Ian: IMHO this clearly isn't a modified rencong blade and most probably it neither is a traditional blade from Indonesia.

Robert, is there a mark on the left side of the blade (near the hilt)?

Regards,
Kai

[Robert]

Hello Ian, I am going to have to agree with Kai, I just do not think that this is a ground down rengong either. IMHO this dagger was made to be exactly how it appears now.

Kai, Unfortunately there are no markings on the blade anywhere other than rust staining and sadly pitting from being neglected over the years.

Best,
Robert

PS Kai, is this the area you were asking about?