An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment

[CharlesS]

This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences.

There are several unique features of the chiseling:

1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic!

2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif???

The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time.

Can anyone translate the cartouche???

I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs.

[ariel]

Strangely, it reminds me of Georgian decoration: central motif ( here it is a round flower) surrounded by vine-ey background and, -especially, - a bird ( here 2 of them) in the middle of the quillon block.
And, at the same time, Georgian handles were not made of brass, the quillons are different, the pommel is not the same....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences.

There are several unique features of the chiseling:

1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic!

2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif???

The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time.

Can anyone translate the cartouche???

I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs.

Salaams CharlesS~ I think the Indian weapon is an Indian Shamshiir. But ! Is it Indian?

I think is says...

Top Cartouche "Sultan Basha"

Lower Cartouche "Yaa Ali"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AJ1356]

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've tried my best to read the inscriptions on the top bukhariyya, but couldn't understand it. Yes, the lower bukhariyya has the famous Shi'ite call: "Ya Ali"; although the way it is written appears to be very weird for me. I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but believe me, I've tried my best.

One thing that I could deduce: The inscription in the top bukhariyya may not be in Arabic; but rather Persian, Urdu, or some other language.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[CharlesS]

Thanks so much for your attempts at help here guys! Most appreciated. I would not be surprised at all if the script was Urdu....I would be a little more surprised if it were Farsi.

The construction of the sword seems Indian through and through to me. It is the decorative motifs that confound me.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually I think the suggestions of Georgian influence are well placed here, as well as the nod toward Hyderabad. The Hyderabad work does often incorporate the rosette in a rather linear fashion with the repousse silver work hilt, and scabbard mounts.
It is important to note the predominance of Mughal courts in India, and profoundly of course in the north in areas now Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Mughal courts favored Persian and Sh'ia culture and of course they followed the Faith, and various kinds of birds were often in their decorative motifs.

The shamshir of course was one of the highly prized swords of the Mughal courts, and in Indian parlance they were termed 'tulwar' regardless that they were of course called differently in contexts outside the Indian sphere.

I am also curious on the block forte on what otherwise would be a regular wootz shamshir blade.

I am wondering if perhaps this might be a diplomatically oriented sword under British auspices in the Raj. The deviation in the cartouches, applied somewhat unusually it would seem, may indeed be Urdu, the lingua francia in the northwest regions as mentioned.

The birds are unique and need to look further into that as far as Mughal motif.
The use of brass is unusual and again ends toward possible western influence in the sword.

[CharlesS]

Thanks Jim. There is no brass in this sword's hilt, as was suggested by Ariel. It is chiseled steel with the raised areas gilded.

The block at the forte that envelops the blade is a somewhat typical feature on Indian swords that have been remounted or 'refitted'. It likely suggests that the blade and hilt were not 'born together' and in this case I think it may be the marriage of an older blade to later fittings.

Just a thought.

Also, the new book by Robert Hales shows a couple of examples of the two cranes or herons in decorative motifs, but naturally the examples in his book of fine arms are much better executed than the one here.

Thanks for your thoughts. I always look forward to your insights.

[Jim McDougall]

Oops! You're absolutely right Charles, looks like I really bought that one! of course it isn't brass, and not sure how I thought it was. Also a bit of a red herring was the suggestion that Georgian swords did not use brass, and I did not realize that we were actually considering that this sword was British. In fact many Georgian officers swords were indeed in brass, typically gilt. The relief work on this hilt strongly suggests Bidri work, which falls nicely in place with the Hydrabad associations as the region known for this dramatic gold with blackened background is geographically close.

Thank you for the observation on the ricasso 'block' which well explains the feature and possible refitting of an older blade.

After some thought and in looking at this hilt form, it is indeed of Persian form and recalls similarly formed solid hilts of the Deccan from 17th century and later, but which usually have flueret style quillon terminals and often knuckleguards. In the southern India preference, these are often however in brass.

With the strong diplomatic and cultural ties between northwest Indian regions and Deccani, the diffusion of many weapons and their features are often seen .

In particular I recall a shamshir hilted tulwar which had a solid steel hilt in loosely this form but quite plain, knuckleguard and with the typically seen tulwar style langet and Ottoman influenced quillon terminals, again as on most tulwars of Indo-Persian hilt with disc pommel.
What was fascinating was that it was mounted with what was distinctly a British M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and with koftgari decorative panel at the forte.

This brings to mind once again the hybridization of these arms between India and Georgian Great Britain, and the importance of both diplomatic and award swords often presented at Royal durbars.

Returning to the potential Urdu in the cartouche, though this language was primarily associated with the northwest in India, it was also present in the courts of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan in the Deccan.

The heron or crane images in the motif remain a puzzle, but it is known that Mughal favor of botanicals and varying animals and birds in motif is very much part of their decorative art in their material culture. These kinds of allegorical and symbolic depictions are typical in Sh'ia artistic context, such as the Simorgh on many blades .

Absolutely magnificent sabre!! and hopefully more ideas will come in. I think your observations regarding Napoleonic influences are well placed. The French were prominently placed in advisory situations in Deccani courts in those times, and it is reciprocally interesting to see the sabres for French officers in 'oriental' style as well.

[AJ1356]

Charles,
Can you post a bigger/better picture of the cartouche?

[CharlesS]

Hopefully this will help.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've posted the latest photo CharlesS submitted and sent it to a guy who speaks Urdu. Here was his answer:

" I have tried very hard to decipher the Arabic/Farsi/Urdu script but cannot go beyond what you have read in the lower part یا علی (Ya Ali) beyond با تا I cannot make out the rest . I think it is Farsi."

Therefore, it appears to be "Bata" instead of "Basha" or "Pasha".

According to him, the script maybe in Farsi; rather than being in Urdu.

Hope this helps...I'm really sorry for my limitations regarding this issue.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Hopefully this will help.

Dear CharlesS,

I'm very sorry for posting the above photo to an Urdu speaking guy without your permission. Please do not be angry, nor misunderstand me. I've tried my best to decipher the inscriptions, but the above posting that I've submitted shows my limitations regarding this script.

Please accept my apologies, Sir. Thanks a lot in advance.

-Ahmed-

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Dear CharlesS,

I'm very sorry for posting the above photo to an Urdu speaking guy without your permission. Please do not be angry, nor misunderstand me. I've tried my best to decipher the inscriptions, but the above posting that I've submitted shows my limitations regarding this script.

Please accept my apologies, Sir. Thanks a lot in advance.

-Ahmed-

Ahmed,

Apologies are hardly necessary. Thanks for your efforts. We are all just trying to learn a little bit here, so I am very grateful for your attempts.

It is certainly becoming clearer and clearer the locale of at least the origin of the blade. Its seems it must be from Persia or western Afghanistan.

[A.alnakkas]

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

I have wondered the same thing. That's one reason I was so interested in a translation. No doubt the blade, scabbard, and fittings are old. The blade is quality wootz. The scabbard covering speaks for itself, and the fittings are chiseled steel....not something seen everyday, and no easy feat. But I have wondered if the cartouche was added later to make it more sellable and "blingy". If only we had a Farsi reader...we would likely know the truth.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Charles,
Not Farsi I'm afraid, one of my my son's friends is a native Farsi speaker so from the horse's mouth so to speak. She identified it as Arabic but the top cartouche did not make any sense. Sorry I couldn't help any further.
My Regards,
Norman.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Charles,
Not Farsi I'm afraid, one of my my son's friends is a native Farsi speaker so from the horse's mouth so to speak. She identified it as Arabic but the top cartouche did not make any sense. Sorry I couldn't help any further.
My Regards,
Norman.

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

[BANDOOK]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

Salaams CharlesS,

Here's another attempt to read the inscriptions on your sword from another person:

"Yes, the part at the bottom of the inscription is straight and easy to read. The problem is in the part at the top. This part is deliberately meant to be cryptic. Perhaps, to help decrypt it, the number 66 is given underneath it. Which alphabet, Greek or Arabic, was the reference for the inscriber (as far as numerical values of the alphabet)? Could 60 be also 30+30, 40+20, etc.? Finding answers to these questions may help.

Most likely this part of the inscription is written in Arabic characters, and is supposed to be read left to right. Left to right, it starts with الر , then comes تا , and finally comes با . "Al rataba" is a word in Arabic that describes the actions of some people, especially when these actions are routine. But be ware that this reading is a guess. There may be other readings."

Hope this helps!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

Please provide us with any links to ended auctions of such swords.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams CharlesS,

Here's another attempt to read the inscriptions on your sword from another person:

"Yes, the part at the bottom of the inscription is straight and easy to read. The problem is in the part at the top. This part is deliberately meant to be cryptic. Perhaps, to help decrypt it, the number 66 is given underneath it. Which alphabet, Greek or Arabic, was the reference for the inscriber (as far as numerical values of the alphabet)? Could 60 be also 30+30, 40+20, etc.? Finding answers to these questions may help.

Most likely this part of the inscription is written in Arabic characters, and is supposed to be read left to right. Left to right, it starts with الر , then comes تا , and finally comes با . "Al rataba" is a word in Arabic that describes the actions of some people, especially when these actions are routine. But be ware that this reading is a guess. There may be other readings."

Hope this helps!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Thanks very much Ahmed! This is very interesting stuff.

[Richard G]

I think at least the following two aspects of the hilt are unusual:-

Why are there two fighting herons? A falcon taking down a heron is a common motif on Persian and Persian influenced swords, along with a lion taking down an antelope or bull. The symbolism is obvious, representing the ability of the owner or his loyalties to overcome his inferiors. I wonder did the maker of this hilt understand this?

Are the herons the right way up? I would say that on 99%, if not 100%, of examples or pictures I have seen motifs and inscriptions on the quillon block are designed to be viewed with the blade down. Presumably this is because the quillon block can be seen when the sword is slung and would look somewhat silly if the motif etc. was upside down. It is of course possible the motif on the outside could be the "correct" way up to be viewed when worn whilst, on the inside, the other way up, to be viewed by the drawer of the sword. If both are the wrong way up I would again wonder whether or not the maker really understood what he was doing.

It would be interesting to read other opinions.

Regards
Richard

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

I think it is neither brand new nor repro being made yesterday. However, the cartouches remind me of late Indian made. Attached below are late 20th Century cartouches on contemporary blades. The hilt shown below is also mid/late 20th Century, similarly chiseled with 2 birds. Whereas the new wootz-like blades are being produced nowadays, this one is not. I think it is older blade with later added cartouches and fittings. It is a nicely looking sword nevertheless.

[spiral]

I agree scabbard fittings & hilt appear very high quality but rather fresh.

I believe Alex could offer good input here.

Spiral

[ALEX]

I totally agree, the fittings are of high quality, and properly made. The cartouche is also of higher than average quality (compare to more recent work shown above). Overall, it is a quality sword, a testament to it's new owner good taste)