The Higher Standard

[PClemente]

Hi All,

There is a predicament that I have been aware of the past couple of years and I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention as well as open up a possible discussion. Lately I have been aware of a number of arms and armor dealers exaggerating their claims (and outright lying) about merchandise in order to appeal to more collectors. I will leave out specific names, etc. The misinformationn can simply be in the dating of an object or making false claims regarding its supposed untouched condition. For example, months ago I was interested in a supposed military fusil from the period of the F&I and Revolutionary Wars. Unfortunately (or in this case fortunately) another deal fell through so I could not afford the gun. Later I directed a knowledgeable collector/friend to the site and he informed me that the fusil was a good example of a fowler sporting gun, and as such exhibits the characteristics of the popular fowling pieces of the period. As a result, he asserted the claim that the gun was a military fusil a stretch at best. Some additional research on his part turned up the same gun in a recent auction described by a major auction house as a "sporting gun" affirming his conclusions. Now the dealer originally assured me that the gun was not a fowler, and I was thinking that if I had purchased the piece that I would have returned it knowing this information. Anyway, I couldn't help but think the dealer was playing me with a lot of misinformation in order to get a sale, especially in light of the fact that sometimes the distinction between true military fusils and fowlers can be ambiguous. Naively I took his word as truth because of his experience in the knowledge, but fortunately never acquired what for all intents and purposes was a nice sporting gun! I could just see the dealer asserting that no matter what other sources claimed HE thought it was a military fusil. I would like to think a more honest dealer would have answered my initial questions regarding the nature of the "military fusil" more truthfully.Just another lesson of "caveat emptor!" The story reaffirmed the idea that before buying a piece that really appeals to you to conduct your own research so you don't make a costly mistake!
I view his forum as a great opportunity to gain knowledge and insight into arms and armor (and I have learned a lot here), as well as a chance to keep each other informed regarding trends in the hobby, both positive and negative.

[fernando]

Gentlemen,
In the event of this thread having further input, please be warned that
in no circumstance 'naming any names' or clearly identifiable innuendos shall will be allowed, these or other similar stories being left anonimized.

[VANDOO]

I AM NOT A DEALER BUT HAVE DONE BUSINESS WITH VARIOUS ONES FOR MANY YEARS SO I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT BUT WILL MAKE SOME OBSERVATIONS. OFTEN DEALERS THEMSELVES ARE NOT KNOWLEGABLE ENOUGH IN A CERTIAN FILED AND DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO CHECK OUT WHAT INFORMATION COMES WITH AN ITEM.
FOR A DEALER TO OPENLY ADMIT HE DOSEN'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT HE IS SELLING TO POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS IS NOT GOOD FOR BUSINESS. A DEALERS REPUTATION IS VERY IMPORTANT AND IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO BUILD OR PROTECT. DEALERS WHO LEAVE THEIR CUSTOMERS DISSATISFIED USUALLY DON'T LAST LONG AS THE WORD DOES GET AROUND. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO HAVE SOME DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS BUT IF A DEALER COMUNICATES WITH SUCH A CUSTOMER PROBLEMS CAN OFTEN BE RESOLVED. (BUT NOT ALWAYS)
IN SUCH A CASE THE DEALER SHOULD NOT TREAT THE CUSTOMER LIKE HE KNOWS VERY LITTLE OR IS WRONG BUT SHOULD DISCUSS WHY HE THINKS THE ITEM IN QUESTION IN THIS CASE IS MILITARY OR SPORTING. THE CUSTOMER CAN GIVE HIS REASONS AND REFRENCES AS TO WHY IT IS NOT. IF NEITHER ONE WILL CHANGE THEIR MIND JUST DON'T BUY THE THING WITH NO HARD FEELINGS.
IF SOMETHING IS RECEIVED BY A CUSTOMER AND HE SAYS IT IS NOT PROPERLY DESCRIBED AND GIVES GOOD REASONS WHY AN APOLOGY AND REFUND BY THE SELLER WHEN THE ITEM IS RETURNED IN THE SAME CONDITION IS IN ORDER. NOTE! THE APOLOGY IS NOT NECESSARLY AN ADMISION OF GIVING WRONG INFORMATION BUT JUST THAT THE SELLER IS SORRY THE BUYER IS NOT SATISFIED. IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEMS BUT IN THIS WORLD IT IS STILL POSSIBLE FOR TWO PEOPLE TO WORK OUT PROBLEMS AND PERHAPS BOTH WILL LEARN IF THEY LISTEN AND COOPERATE. PRIDE OFTEN GETS IN THE WAY OF COMMUNICATION AND RESOLVING PROBLEMS. BUT WE ARE ONLY HUMAN
JUST MY WAY OF LOOKING AT IT THERE ARE GOOD DEALERS AND BAD IN OUR COLLECTING FIELD AS EVERWHERE ELSE IN LIFE JUST DON'T BE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE BUT ALWAYS BE CAUTIOUS.

[M ELEY]

This has been the story from the beginning of time, after all. When there are wares that must be sold, somethimes stories are embellished or worse, down-right faked to make a living. Perhaps sometimes, it is as Barry said, the seller's own lack of knowledge in a particular area. This can work to one's advantage at times, or very much against it, if you are fooled by a fisherman's story. If the dealer is an expert in firearms, he may be clueless with edged weapons and vice versa. That being said, there are some less than scrupulous types out there, but their dishonesty is bound to hurt thier business in the end. The best way to avoid getting burned? This forum, for one. Self-education is the strongest, followed by research. Finally, we have that old addage- 'If it looks too good to be true, than...

[Battara]

I once came to a Sulu kris, but the dealer told me it was a Zulu sword brought back from the Boer Wars of South Africa. He mentioned that he got it from the grandson of the officer who once owned it.

I immediately gave him a lesson in what it really was. His partner laughed his head off, having warned the dealer about his stories 10 minutes before and that some one will one day catch him. Guess I was that some one.

On another occassion, I corrected another dealer about his $1000 "African" spear being a Moro spearhead, with documentation.

Moral of the story: story does not mean squat. Their so called expertise also doesn't mean squat. I rarely if ever buy anything unless I have researched it first and have some knowledge. Although this does not guarantee that you won't be scammed, it does lower the odds considerably. I have been burned 3 times in my collecting, all of them because I didn't have my homework done. Also listen to your gut as well.

You did well in the scenario that you described. Keep up the good work.

[Rick]

Buy books first .

[M ELEY]

"I ain't much for fancy book-learnin'"- Just kidding and very well put, Rick.

Battara, loved those stories and wanted to add one of my own. I once picked up a Dutch hanger circa 1730 from an antiques market outside of Colonial Williamsburg. The seller insisted it was 'Civil War' with a whole boulderdash story of its history. The point was, he knew it wasn't CW and in his mind, less valuable. I knew what it was, liked the price and picked it up a happy man! No harm, no foul. Didn't even bother to educate him on its history or value.

[Rick]

Arrrr, mate; everything nautical I learned was at a rope's end ..

Sometimes we can turn the tables on an ignorant Seller and the Hunter then becomes the Hunted .

[M ELEY]

Hey, most pirates were honest chaps, really!

Perhaps we should start a thread on the best piece we ever landed despite the tall tales & odds? Or...we could mention it here (yes, it is fun to gloat a little)

Last year, I managed to pick up that rather rare naval dress dirk from a guy who thought it was from 'Persia' based on the Arabic styling. A name scratched into the guard, 'Ahaoda', seemed odd. As it turns out, it came from an estate of a Mr Hughes. With research, I found that the Celtic family name for Hughes is Ahaoda! I felt so guilty that I never told the seller. I don't like cheating folks, but I suspected it was naval and took a chance. Anyone else out there got a 'turn the tables' story? It might liven the cheat/fraud stories a bit.

[PClemente]

Like the idea! Sure there are plenty of negative tales of unscrupulous dealers, but also plenty of stories of great buys by learned collectors!

Years ago I was wandering through an antique market looking for interesting military antiques and came across what the dealer claimed was a Rev War English Dragoon pistol, the only problem being that it was one of the notorious copies built in Japan post WW2. As my wife pulled me along I noticed in the same glass case what appeared to be an old miniature portrait of a soldier in armor. The dealer was so intent on trying to sell me the flintlock and gain a big sale that he downplayed the miniature as an old little painting he had picked up as part of a bigger lot in Europe years previous. I told him my suspicions about the gun, and he seemed legitimately surprised. I then examined and bought the miniature. Now I don't collect art, but because of my interest and research in the Thirty Years War I recognized the small portrait as that of Christian the Younger (or "The Mad" according to Catholic propaganda at the time), who was a famous Protestant military leader early in the war. The portrait looked to be oil on copper which I remembered as one of the styles of the early 17th century, and the frame was covered in old wormholes and looked period. The portrait wasn't much and worth the risk, and turned out to be a genuine period portrait of the Protestant hero. Upon further examination I even found an old collection label on the back of the copper dating to the early 1900's. Now I am not saying the portrait is a five figure lottery winning, but it turned out to be a truly historical piece worth a lot more than I paid, and it became a welcome addition to my fledgling collection of Thirty Years War militaria, all because I initially took interest in a fake flintlock.
I would love to hear stories of other great buys on your part!

[kronckew]

my 'egyptian machete' remains my best vendor mangled description. the burmese presentation script engraved into the silver portion of the grip didn't impress him much. cost me all of 5 pounds at auction. the description kept the sharks at bay i even tried to warn him...

[A Senefelder]

I scored a Maximillian right leg c. late 1520's for a couple of C notes from a fella in Australia on epray who thouhgt it was a Victorian era theater prop.

[M ELEY]

Wow! Now that's what I'm talking about! Spectacular finds and treasures! These are the ones we've got to hold on to to make up for those other times when we're not so lucky in the purchase. I did score an authentic French cuirass breast plate armor being sold as repro once, but not even in the same league as your Maximillian piece. Wow again!

[A Senefelder]

Nowhere near as grandios but I got these 16th century lower pauldron lames on Christmas Eve in an antique store, masking taped together labled " armour pieces " for $30. I reassembled them ( they were just a bundle of plates ). Of note is the slot for a keypin to allow the arms harness and pauldron to be joined to each other.

[PClemente]

It's great how a tale of buyer beware can take a positive turn! Keep 'em coming!