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#1 |
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I hope that somebody could tell me which language it is ..
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#2 |
Vikingsword Staff
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I will guess that this 'buss last saw action in Sumatra .
Maybe that will help with the script . I expect a lot of those marks are talismanic in nature; but there is still something there to read . |
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#3 |
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Please show the rest, too.
In the center there are the seven seals of Solomon (= very famous pan-Islamic talismanic motifs). It's strange that motif #2 is supposed to be #7. Otherwise they are in the proper order with the star (#1) repeated. Michael (the sign resembling # stands for the angel Mika'il) |
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#4 | |
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Please tell me more if possible about this blunderbuss marks Regards Cerjak |
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#5 | |
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OK,
Here is a copy from Canaan. It's in German but it gives you some ideas. The main thing is that it is based on the symbolism of the number 7. Michael Reference: Canaan, T. 1914. Aberglaube und Volksmedizin im Lande der Bibel. Hamburg: L. Friederichsen & Co. Quote:
Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2012 at 07:54 PM. |
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#6 |
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Here I found a short explanation in French, too.
It's from Doutté and the square with the seals in is a version of the Latin square where, usually a formula or passage from the Qur'an, is repeated in such a way that the same symbol/word only occurs once in each direction. If you combine the table from Canaan with the explanation from Doutté I think you will get most of it... Michael Reference: Doutté, Edmond. 1909. Magie & religion dans l’Afrique du Nord. Alger: Typographe Adolphe Jourdan. Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2012 at 07:54 PM. |
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#7 |
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I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss.
kind regards Cerjak |
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#8 |
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are these symbols by chance from pre-islamic times?
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#9 | |
Keris forum moderator
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BTW, while certainly talismanic and i suppose technically a "seal" i would not refer to this as one of Solomon's seals. Originally Solomon's Seal was said to be a signet ring used to command spirits and demons. There have been many variations of the seal depicted over the centuries, most often in disk form as a medallion and featuring either the 6-pointed star of the pentagram. http://www.google.com/search?q=seal+...w=1394&bih=768 |
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#10 |
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David,
If you are referring to the Western Esotericism (i.e. Christian) and their, and later Jewish, versions of the stars in your link you might be correct about the age (and in most cases they are much later). But in this case it is Islamic Esotericism. For instance the main Islamic authority, al-Buni died in 1225! The 7 seals of Solomon was not his invention, even if he of course covers them in his works, which means that they are much older than this. Your story about the signet ring is mentioned in text from Doutté above and it is the seal #1 of the traditional seven. It alternates in shape between the six-sided (Canaan) or the pentagram (Doutté). Michael |
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#11 |
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I just double checked in a reference work on Islamic artifacts. According to Savage-Smith the 7 seals of Solomon first started to appear in the 12th century on talismans etc.
Michael Reference: Savage-Smith, Emelie. 1997. Magic and Islam, in Francis Maddison and Emelie Savage-Smith (eds.). Science, Tools & Magic (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art). Part II. Oxford: Oxford University Press. |
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#12 | |
Keris forum moderator
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![]() http://www.scribd.com/doc/89426578/T...of-the-Symbols |
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#13 |
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Thanks David,
Graham's article is about the non-islamic origin of these signs, which of course is the reason that he is skipping the (Seven Seals) "of Solomon" in his article to make his point. However, in the Islamic reference works which he quotes from (I have glanced through Winkler and read almost all of the other mentioned, three of them are even quoted above) these signs are described as the seven seals of Solomon. And if we can agree that the context is Islamic, and not Jewish or Babylonian, on this blunderbuss then this decides which culture that rules what they should be called. If the star (#1) would have been on a Jewish artifact I would have chosen to name it the shield of David, instead of the seal of Solomon etc... I will read the article when I find time BUT what disturbs me is that there is nothing to find about where this article was published, and even on the author himself, on Google Scholar. This implies that even if he may know what he talks about nobody else seems to have checked his article to confirm this is the case. So unfortunately for some reason he does not seem to have any credibility as a scholarly reference himself, in contrast to the references I have brought up (and also Graham is using). Michael Last edited by VVV; 12th December 2012 at 05:26 PM. |
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#14 | |
Keris forum moderator
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#15 |
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I also consider Solomon to have been a Jewish king BUT according to Islam he was a muslim prophet - the same was Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. According to Islamic sources it is the original religion of Adam, not something originating with Mohammad. I really don't want to go into theological matters on who is "correct" on this (not being Muslim myself).
I leave this discussion now because I think I have made my point, either you follow the academic approach or the "popular" approach to evaluate sources to solve this issue. Michael PS I was wrong above on Graham, actually he is found on Google Scholar. He is the same Graham that has published several scholarly articles on biochemistry and molecular biology. Magic etc. seems to be his hobby and the articles he has written on this subject are published in magical organization's newsletters etc. |
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#16 |
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David and Michael, I have no wish to engage in your discussion here, I just want to point out that David is also a prophet or rasul according to the Quran.
Take care guys! - Thor |
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#17 |
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In Islamic sources (Quran and authentic sunnah) there are no symbols. The star of David was adopted by some Muslim peoples but it has no reference as far as I know in any of the sources.
Hope this helps. |
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#18 |
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Thanks guys. I am not looking to get into a discussion of religion here for sure...
![]() ![]() Still not convinced that this particular issue can be solved either by the academic or popular approach. ![]() ![]() |
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