Cannons from Dithmarschen

[Andi]

Hello!

I am new in this forum and I hope I will be able to contibute something interesting for you. I am primarily interested in very early european firearms until end of 14th century but with a special focus on fire arms aorund 1400 AD.

At the permanent exhibition of the Dithmarscher Landesmuseum, Meldorf, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany I have made some photos of small cannons. Unfortunately no description was available in the exhibition and a request to the museums remained unanswered. Unforturnately the photos are not so good and I missed to take the dimensions of the barrels. I guess the outer barrels had a lenght of approx. 100 to 110 cm, but I can not recall the approximate calibre.

I guess the left and right barrels are dating to the 15th or 16th century.
May someone can give a more prcise date?

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Andi .
I hope the members come around and give you some comments on these cannons; not Matchlock, as he will be absent for a while.
My own knowledge is extremely limited but i will dare say that the cannons on the left and right are earlier than you are guessing; but don't take this too seriously
As for the one in the center, the breech loader, i would risk the opinion that it misses part of the barrel, judging by its proportional dimensions.
Let's hope other members chime in to correct my shots and offer a better judgement.

[Jim McDougall]

While I have entirely zero knowledge on medieval firearms and artillery I would like to join Fernando in welcoming you to the forum Andi. I only wish Michael (Matchlock) was here to join in, as he is in my opinion one of the foremost authorities worldwide on these topics. Despite my lack of knowledge on these, I think Fernando's observations are quite valid and I am inclined to agree. While he is quite modest he does have good working knowledge on many of these weapons.

The only resource I have on the subject is searching Michaels huge corpus of posts on these, which provides me with at least cursory understanding.

The breechloader with what I presume to be the loading trough does seem to be missing the forward stage of the barrel, and corresponds with other 15th century variations of breech loaders. It seems that guns similar have been discovered from naval wreck sites and of that period, though these usually had series of pronounced bands.
The shorter one with the rear loop ? seems to be possibly a handgonne or mortar with similar in Swiss types of 15th century.
The example affixed in trough with dual iron bands seems to be of German steinbuchse type (stone gun) of 1460 +

I am not sure of the significance of the flanged barrel mouth, and it seems the two muzzle loading were likely both stone firing.
I think these can all be safely assumed 15th century. I hope that perhaps others out there who have more information might respond, and hopefully correct my attemprs at speculating. In the meantime, I know we all anxiously await Michaels return.

Thank you so much for sharing these Andi.

All best regards,
Jim

[Andi]

Thank you Jim and fernando for your replies.

In case an 15th century dating (or even better an early 15th century dating) of the barrels could be confirmed scientifically would be most welcome for me. So I have to hope and wait for an statement of the museum or of an authority like Matchlock. I think I really should try a second effort to ask the museum for the relevant information. Especially information how and exactly where and in which context this barrels has been found may be interesting.

I will let you know as soon as I get the information.

Its a pitty, I really hoped to communicate with Matchlock - I hope he is OK and will be active here soon.

[Andi]

Cool: Today I have recevied the answer from Dithmarscher Landesmuseum which sounds a bit curious:

Sehr geehrter Herr ...,
Da haben Sie uns in der Tat an einem wunden Punkt erwischt. Wir wissen nämlich nur sehr wenig über diese Rohre. Sie tragen die Inventarnummern 981-983. Sieht man in das entsprechende Inventarbuch und die älteste Museumsakte, stellt man fest, daß sie bereits im Frühsommer 1874 dem Museum (gegründet 1872) übergeben wurden, und zwar vom Kirchenvorstand der Gemeinde Büsum. Weiterhin ist dort angegeben, daß diese Waffen angeblich nach der Schlacht bei Hemmingstedt gefunden wurden und später als Uhrgewichte in der Büsumer Kirche dienten. Die Schlacht bei Hemmingstedt fand 1500 statt. Der genaue Standort der Schanze, an der die Dithmarscher das feindliche Invasionsheer abwerten, wie auch der des Schlachtfeldes ist nach wie vor unklar, er liegt knapp südlich von Hemmingstedt, wobei schon umstritten ist ob südöstlich oder, so die häufigere Annahme, südwestlich. Den detailliertesten Überblick zur Schlacht, auch zur Bewaffnung, bietet nach wie vor: Walther Lammers: Die Schlacht bei Hemmingstedt, Heide, 1953 (1.Aufl.) bzw. 1982 (2. Aufl.). Die Uhr für die Büsumer Kirche ist 1502 angeschafft worden. Die Länge der zwei Feldschlangen beträgt 68cm. Über ihr Gewicht ist mir nichts bekannt. Ich hoffe, daß Sie mit diesen wenigen Informationen etwas anfangen können und verbleibe
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
K.S.

Dear ...,
Here you have caught us in a sore spot. Because we know very little about these pipes. Their inventory numbers are 981-983. Looking in the corresponding inventory book and the oldest museums records, it is found that they were already in the musuem since early summer of 1874 (founded in 1872). They were passed from the parish council of the municipality Büsum. Furthermore it is specified that these weapons were allegedly found after the battle of Hemmingstedt and later served as clock weights at the Büsum church. The battle of Hemmingstedt took place in 1500. The exact location of the earthwork where the Dithmarscher devalue the foreign invasion army, as well as the battlefield is still unclear, it is just south of Hemmingstedt, which already is controversial whether or southeast, the frequent assumption southwest. The most detailed overview of the battle, and for armament, still provides: Walther Lammers: Die Schlacht bei Hemmingstedt, Heide, 1953 (1. Edition) respectively 1982 (2. Edition). The clock for the Büsum church was purchased 1502. The length of the two field barrels is 68cm. About their weight I know nothing.
I hope that you can work with this little information and remain


I hope I will be able to visit the museum again to take more preciese measurements.

Now I wonder if the barrels were found in such a bad condition that a reactivation as weapon was not possible or economoic. Especially shortly after a severe war, where you may expect a reaction from the defeated party the Danish King John I. Or maybe the barrels were been taken as a trophy and incorporated into the church.

http://www.landesmuseum-dithmarschen.de

[fernando]

So their age is in the latest XV century
Now ... it fits within the wings of imagination to presume that the loops in both (Jim) gonnes were made for the purpose of their transformation into (hanging) clock weights....such loops may having been originaly straight rods, as for tiller guns .

[Andi]

Unfortunately for my private purpuses they are much too young
a dating between 1375-1400 would much more suite my wishes - but that's live

I just received the calibres of the three barrels from the museum which are: 6, 5 and 3 cm. Unforutnately they only informed then in bulk without specifying for which barrels. I guess I have to visit the museum again and take the measurements by myself.

[fernando]

You have a PM, Andi