c.1800 Grenadiers Sword??

templarnight · 10th October 2012, 12:50 AM

Hi.
Ive just picked up this Sword.
Its got a 78cm single edged Blade, Brass Guard with Silver Grip. The Pommel is cast with the Grenadiers Grenade.
It has similarities to the 1796 Infantry and also the Life Guards Sword, but I cant find anything identical.

Any help would be gratefully recieved.

templarnight · 11th October 2012, 07:32 PM

So perhaps this has stumped the forum as well as me??

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2012, 08:02 PM

It still has me stumped OK! Thought I might find some help in Danish or Dutch military, as they often had these kind of officers dress swords resembling British. It certainly does seem of the M1796 general form, and officers courtsword character with the backsword blade, so I thing periodwise pretty well established. The key is going to be the quatrefoil grenade.......what in the world is that? Its the type flaming grenade used by grenadiers, but could it be something else?

I hope others will join in, this is a tough one!

Jim McDougall · 12th October 2012, 07:14 PM

If Im solo on this, then the least I can do is offer some update or thoughts as I continue looking. I know the others are out there, I can hear them breathing. So far as indicated, this doesnt correspond directly with most military officers dress or court swords I am familiar with.

What is key in consideration in decoration is this curious four flamed bomb in quatrefoil. The flaming bomb is of course used as a device for grenadiers, but also for Royal Artillery and other associated units and appears to have been used in variation in some other countries as well. Apparantly there are some variations with the number of flames issuing from the bomb, in some cases up to 9, however I have not yet found variations of the flaming bomb device in multiple flames issuing around the bomb in this configuration.

The sword itself is pretty much standard configuration in officers full dress/court swords from probably latter 18th century (around the time of the infantry spadroons with backsword blades). This blade is much narrower and almost epee type in form it appears. The shellguard is atypical in that the shells project upwards, rather than flat or horizontally postioned in opposed configuration.

The period seems likely about the end of the 18th century to about mid 19th and of course certainly European, but the four flamed bomb device, which is a military oriented symbol, will be key I think. Perhaps this might be a court type sword with fraternal connections, remains to be seen.

Still trying

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur · 13th October 2012, 07:28 PM

Germanic states type degen with a fixed guard used as late as the 20th century. The spadroon type blade actually post dates the earlier double edge type used for the grenadier officer degen pattern and that would place it past the Napoleonic period (imo). My impression is that it is later than mid 19th century (going by the casting quality).

Is there a maker's mark?

Cheers

GC

templarnight · 14th October 2012, 06:23 PM

No theres no markings on it.

For what its worth my opinion is that it doesnt have the appearance or feel of being late 19th century.

Hotspur · 14th October 2012, 11:54 PM

Here is a brand new one

http://wkc-solingen.de/newshop/image/stichD.jpg

There is some thought that the British 1796 was of German styling but only insomuch as to the general hilt profile.

Condition is just a factor of condition. Something may look and feel a great deal older than it is. This sword is not exactly in the same vein as 20th century postal degen but of the same general family of dress swords.

I suppose there was no reason for me to reply at all but have offered my impressions. Last I looked (taht was a long time ago though, Rob Miller of Lion Gate had a very similar example with a metal vs wire grip. Not that that means anything aside from more indication of the longevity for the general pattern (folding inboard guards or not).

Old Swords has a later infantry example. I see others round and about but not with the grenadier pommel. On what exactly are you basing the 1800 ballpark?

Cheers

GC

templarnight · 15th October 2012, 12:01 AM

Im basing the date on the Blade style also, its almost identical to the 1796 Infantry Sword.

Hotspur · 15th October 2012, 12:52 AM

Yes, as mentioned, spadroon blades persist into the 20th century.

The example I mentioned from Lion Gate is gone but there is a fresher example there. Look at the Late 19th Century Prussian Civil Service Sword listed at
http://www.antiqueswords.com/categor...ed-Weapons.htm and note the same type of blade certainly used that late.

As to the Scandinavian types of slim infantry swords with double guards and also the German degen of the 18th century, you are going to see more with double edge blades not unlike the British 1796 heavy cavalry dress swords. There have been some of the earlier German swords circulating on Ebay lately.

The folding guard example at Old Swords lacks good blade pictures but certainly the same spadroon blade.

Cheers

GC

10th October 2012, 12:50 AM	#1
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	c.1800 Grenadiers Sword?? Hi. Ive just picked up this Sword. Its got a 78cm single edged Blade, Brass Guard with Silver Grip. The Pommel is cast with the Grenadiers Grenade. It has similarities to the 1796 Infantry and also the Life Guards Sword, but I cant find anything identical. Any help would be gratefully recieved. Attached Images Last edited by templarnight; 10th October 2012 at 01:02 AM.

11th October 2012, 07:32 PM	#2
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	So perhaps this has stumped the forum as well as me??

11th October 2012, 08:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	It still has me stumped OK! Thought I might find some help in Danish or Dutch military, as they often had these kind of officers dress swords resembling British. It certainly does seem of the M1796 general form, and officers courtsword character with the backsword blade, so I thing periodwise pretty well established. The key is going to be the quatrefoil grenade.......what in the world is that? Its the type flaming grenade used by grenadiers, but could it be something else? I hope others will join in, this is a tough one!

12th October 2012, 07:14 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	If Im solo on this, then the least I can do is offer some update or thoughts as I continue looking. I know the others are out there, I can hear them breathing. So far as indicated, this doesnt correspond directly with most military officers dress or court swords I am familiar with. What is key in consideration in decoration is this curious four flamed bomb in quatrefoil. The flaming bomb is of course used as a device for grenadiers, but also for Royal Artillery and other associated units and appears to have been used in variation in some other countries as well. Apparantly there are some variations with the number of flames issuing from the bomb, in some cases up to 9, however I have not yet found variations of the flaming bomb device in multiple flames issuing around the bomb in this configuration. The sword itself is pretty much standard configuration in officers full dress/court swords from probably latter 18th century (around the time of the infantry spadroons with backsword blades). This blade is much narrower and almost epee type in form it appears. The shellguard is atypical in that the shells project upwards, rather than flat or horizontally postioned in opposed configuration. The period seems likely about the end of the 18th century to about mid 19th and of course certainly European, but the four flamed bomb device, which is a military oriented symbol, will be key I think. Perhaps this might be a court type sword with fraternal connections, remains to be seen. Still trying All the best, Jim

13th October 2012, 07:28 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Germanic states type degen with a fixed guard used as late as the 20th century. The spadroon type blade actually post dates the earlier double edge type used for the grenadier officer degen pattern and that would place it past the Napoleonic period (imo). My impression is that it is later than mid 19th century (going by the casting quality). Is there a maker's mark? Cheers GC

14th October 2012, 06:23 PM	#6
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	No theres no markings on it. For what its worth my opinion is that it doesnt have the appearance or feel of being late 19th century.

14th October 2012, 11:54 PM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Here is a brand new one http://wkc-solingen.de/newshop/image/stichD.jpg There is some thought that the British 1796 was of German styling but only insomuch as to the general hilt profile. Condition is just a factor of condition. Something may look and feel a great deal older than it is. This sword is not exactly in the same vein as 20th century postal degen but of the same general family of dress swords. I suppose there was no reason for me to reply at all but have offered my impressions. Last I looked (taht was a long time ago though, Rob Miller of Lion Gate had a very similar example with a metal vs wire grip. Not that that means anything aside from more indication of the longevity for the general pattern (folding inboard guards or not). Old Swords has a later infantry example. I see others round and about but not with the grenadier pommel. On what exactly are you basing the 1800 ballpark? Cheers GC

15th October 2012, 12:01 AM	#8
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Im basing the date on the Blade style also, its almost identical to the 1796 Infantry Sword.

15th October 2012, 12:52 AM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Yes, as mentioned, spadroon blades persist into the 20th century. The example I mentioned from Lion Gate is gone but there is a fresher example there. Look at the Late 19th Century Prussian Civil Service Sword listed at http://www.antiqueswords.com/categor...ed-Weapons.htm and note the same type of blade certainly used that late. As to the Scandinavian types of slim infantry swords with double guards and also the German degen of the 18th century, you are going to see more with double edge blades not unlike the British 1796 heavy cavalry dress swords. There have been some of the earlier German swords circulating on Ebay lately. The folding guard example at Old Swords lacks good blade pictures but certainly the same spadroon blade. Cheers GC