Khyber Karbine?

trenchwarfare · 27th September 2012, 04:43 PM

This arrived via USPS, yesterday. Very nice little carbine. It's almost small enough to be considered a pistol. Barrel is 13", with an o/a length, of 25 1/2". About .50 caliber. My initial thought was Indo-Persian. But, the stock is very like Circassian. All of the chisel work on the barrel was gold inlayed, and some traces remain. All stock penetrations are, or were lined with bone escutions. The ones for the front sling swivel are missing. But then, that swivel has been replaced. There are even bone liners on both sides of the breach tang. I don't think they're ivory. Lock is crudely marked, with mispelled British markings. Looks to be converted from flint, to percussion. I suspect, the barrel band is a replacement. Not the same quality as the rest. All that being said, whatizzit?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

This arrived via USPS, yesterday. Very nice little carbine. It's almost small enough to be considered a pistol. Barrel is 13", with an o/a length, of 25 1/2". About .50 caliber. My initial thought was Indo-Persian. But, the stock is very like Circassian. All of the chisel work on the barrel was gold inlayed, and some traces remain. All stock penetrations are, or were lined with bone escutions. The ones for the front sling swivel are missing. But then, that swivel has been replaced. There are even bone liners on both sides of the breach tang. I don't think they're ivory. Lock is crudely marked, with mispelled British markings. Looks to be converted from flint, to percussion. I suspect, the barrel band is a replacement. Not the same quality as the rest. All that being said, whatizzit?

Salaams trenchwarfare ~ Very clear picture of the mis spelled TOWER mark and probably going on from that assumption one of the home made local workshop variants from up the Khyber or similar provenance... This one with a decent trigger guard likely stripped off another weapon (usually the trigger guards are flimsy built copies) The barrel possibly cut back torador or similar. Indo Persian or Indo Afghan. Obviously a copy but interesting to get to grips with these home made jobs and for members to identify the salient points on a lot of these copies... Where it gets tricky is when original parts are added.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

trenchwarfare · 27th September 2012, 09:14 PM

Thanks for your observations Ibrahiim. The barrel looks to be made the length it is, not cut back. The muzzle is "swamped", and the decorations terminate there. I don't really think it's a recent copy. It exhibits signs of long use, and carry, with multiple replacements, and repairs. The lock could be a replacement, as it is a typical mispelled copy. The trigger guard is a replacement, as it doesn't quite fit the mortise.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Thanks for your observations Ibrahiim. The barrel looks to be made the length it is, not cut back. The muzzle is "swamped", and the decorations terminate there. I don't really think it's a recent copy. It exhibits signs of long use, and carry, with multiple replacements, and repairs. The lock could be a replacement, as it is a typical mispelled copy. The trigger guard is a replacement, as it doesn't quite fit the mortise.

Salaams trenchwarfare ~ I suspect that the barrel is a cutback variant. A lot of barrels blew up at the first join (that being the logical weakest link) and some were made into these pistol half long gun types. Other weapons with short barrels were made as childrens' guns. It would have been easy for a gunsmith / workshops to braize the end of this shortened barrel and flare it out~ and add the foresight... and if required decorate accordingly with floral motifs. Though on your barrel the decoration seems to be original in that it conveniently stops in the right place at the aparrent end of the first barrel section. The questions are...1. Is this a children's gun? 2.Is this a cut back long barrel? 3. Is this a deliberately made short weapon?

It is in my opinion a children's gun made from a cutback barrel..etc

For interest here are a couple of matchlock barrels which blew at the first join. Easy to imagine them remodeled like yours. This in no way detracts from the type which moreover underpins the cottage industry in the Khyber region whose stock in trade was after all products from the weapons forge and where the entire family were involved; apprentices and all. This weapon has all the hall marks of this industry... reworked woodwork... replacement, copied lock ....recycled barrel and redecoration where required in the traditional manner.

Like a lot of workshops they never paid much attention to the trigger guard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

rickystl · 29th September 2012, 09:07 PM

Hi Trenchwarfare. Now that is a very interesting gun. Looking only at the first photo, the first thought that came to mind was Cossack! - with the Circassian style stock. Of course further photos reveal that it is not. Generally, I am inclined to agree with Ibrahiim on this gun. Here are my observations:

Lock: A great example of a locally made/Kyber type lock replica. The mis-spelling of Tower and the crude attempt with the GR and Broad Arrow. And the more crudely made hammer. All hallmarks of the Kyber region local gun manufacture, as Ibrahiim mentioned. The lock does look original to the gun.

Stock: The stock looks like it was copied in the Circassian/Persian manner.

Barrel: Now this is the interesting part of the gun. Hmmmmm, this is a tough one. The barrel looks Persian/Indo Persian. The 13" length could mean that the barrel started it's life as a pistol. But NO. If that were true there would be no need for the rear sight arrangement. The cut down barrel theory is a real possibility. Though, as noted, the barrel decoration - and the swell - end correctly at the muzzle as if the barrel was made that way. If the barrel was shortened and re-worked, they certainly did a good job of it. The rear sight on this barrel make me believe this barrel started life with a longer length. Note also the decoration on the breech plug tang matches the rest of the barrel. The rear sight appears to be part of the breech plug. A long gun barrel this short would have no need for a rear sight arrangement like this.

I'm now beginning to lean towards Ibrahiim's theory that this gun was made for a young boy. One possible clue would be to measure the LOP (length of pull) from the trigger to the end of the butt stock. Although even adult sige long arms often have a LOP of only 11" - 12", reflecting the smaller stature of people in this region during the 19th Century. But it would be interesting to know that measurement if you would.
Additionally, if you have the opportunity, could you post photos of the trigger guard area, the muzzle/bore, and the end of the butt stock? Thanks.

Overall, I find this gun very interesting. A Kyber area made gun with a real mix of cultures and assembly. Thak you for Posting. Hope to see some additional photos. Rick.

AJ1356 · 30th September 2012, 04:54 AM

I have a few obsevations I am gonna throw out there regarding this item.
First as many has mentioned before, the lock is newly made, and crudely as well. From what I have gathered they are making these around Kabul area, mainly for sale for the tourist market and to poeple who have no idea what is what.
Second the barrel, to me it looks to be of original lenght, one really bad habbit poeple have, which pisses me off, is they scrape off gold from the engraved portions of the barrells, as it seems to have been done to this barrell. The forward barrell band seems to be new however.
I am not familiar with the stock design but the stock looks original as well, note the dents on the wood and the imprints of the original lock screws on the stock.
Final conclution, stock and barrel are original to each other, but the lock is new. This is something very common here. The locks get damaged or whatevere and or sold seperately and they just add a fake lock to the barrel and stock and sell it at a much cheaper price that they would a complete untouched item.

27th September 2012, 04:43 PM	#1
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Khyber Karbine? This arrived via USPS, yesterday. Very nice little carbine. It's almost small enough to be considered a pistol. Barrel is 13", with an o/a length, of 25 1/2". About .50 caliber. My initial thought was Indo-Persian. But, the stock is very like Circassian. All of the chisel work on the barrel was gold inlayed, and some traces remain. All stock penetrations are, or were lined with bone escutions. The ones for the front sling swivel are missing. But then, that swivel has been replaced. There are even bone liners on both sides of the breach tang. I don't think they're ivory. Lock is crudely marked, with mispelled British markings. Looks to be converted from flint, to percussion. I suspect, the barrel band is a replacement. Not the same quality as the rest. All that being said, whatizzit? Attached Images

27th September 2012, 09:14 PM	#3
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Thanks for your observations Ibrahiim. The barrel looks to be made the length it is, not cut back. The muzzle is "swamped", and the decorations terminate there. I don't really think it's a recent copy. It exhibits signs of long use, and carry, with multiple replacements, and repairs. The lock could be a replacement, as it is a typical mispelled copy. The trigger guard is a replacement, as it doesn't quite fit the mortise.

29th September 2012, 09:07 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Trenchwarfare. Now that is a very interesting gun. Looking only at the first photo, the first thought that came to mind was Cossack! - with the Circassian style stock. Of course further photos reveal that it is not. Generally, I am inclined to agree with Ibrahiim on this gun. Here are my observations: Lock: A great example of a locally made/Kyber type lock replica. The mis-spelling of Tower and the crude attempt with the GR and Broad Arrow. And the more crudely made hammer. All hallmarks of the Kyber region local gun manufacture, as Ibrahiim mentioned. The lock does look original to the gun. Stock: The stock looks like it was copied in the Circassian/Persian manner. Barrel: Now this is the interesting part of the gun. Hmmmmm, this is a tough one. The barrel looks Persian/Indo Persian. The 13" length could mean that the barrel started it's life as a pistol. But NO. If that were true there would be no need for the rear sight arrangement. The cut down barrel theory is a real possibility. Though, as noted, the barrel decoration - and the swell - end correctly at the muzzle as if the barrel was made that way. If the barrel was shortened and re-worked, they certainly did a good job of it. The rear sight on this barrel make me believe this barrel started life with a longer length. Note also the decoration on the breech plug tang matches the rest of the barrel. The rear sight appears to be part of the breech plug. A long gun barrel this short would have no need for a rear sight arrangement like this. I'm now beginning to lean towards Ibrahiim's theory that this gun was made for a young boy. One possible clue would be to measure the LOP (length of pull) from the trigger to the end of the butt stock. Although even adult sige long arms often have a LOP of only 11" - 12", reflecting the smaller stature of people in this region during the 19th Century. But it would be interesting to know that measurement if you would. Additionally, if you have the opportunity, could you post photos of the trigger guard area, the muzzle/bore, and the end of the butt stock? Thanks. Overall, I find this gun very interesting. A Kyber area made gun with a real mix of cultures and assembly. Thak you for Posting. Hope to see some additional photos. Rick.

30th September 2012, 04:54 AM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I have a few obsevations I am gonna throw out there regarding this item. First as many has mentioned before, the lock is newly made, and crudely as well. From what I have gathered they are making these around Kabul area, mainly for sale for the tourist market and to poeple who have no idea what is what. Second the barrel, to me it looks to be of original lenght, one really bad habbit poeple have, which pisses me off, is they scrape off gold from the engraved portions of the barrells, as it seems to have been done to this barrell. The forward barrell band seems to be new however. I am not familiar with the stock design but the stock looks original as well, note the dents on the wood and the imprints of the original lock screws on the stock. Final conclution, stock and barrel are original to each other, but the lock is new. This is something very common here. The locks get damaged or whatevere and or sold seperately and they just add a fake lock to the barrel and stock and sell it at a much cheaper price that they would a complete untouched item.