Nagasasra luk 11

[satsujinken]

2nd thread in this forum, just to share one of my keris collection to you all for the sake of educational purpose

now the story behind

I got this keris from friend of mine, this was once family heirloom, and wrapped in white cloth instead of warangka, with several objects such as dried flowers, coins, kemenyan (myrrh). hilt and mendak is original

previous owner died and his sons practically gave it up to me for small amount of money - well in javanese terms "mahar"

first impressions - I think the blade is newly made (kamardikan), but friend of mine said otherwise, he said it is Mataram nom (17th century), based on the texture of the wilah, the sound it makes, and the overall characteristic ... but he also said that the gold in the dragon's mouth is not original, perhaps replaced or later addition

this blade had spine consisted of miji timun pamor, which formed the dragon's body undulating from bottom to top, whereas the cutting section on both sides of the body is already thinning due to old age and regular cleaning, so the keris is relatively light - I try to capture it in camera

I have another like this, but with different garap (quality), and definitely from kamardikan and the quality of the steel used is different with this one.

this keris is found doused in oil and sandalwood powder and some kind of thick-gummy materials I never found on other blade I've seen so far

and it took nearly 4 hours just to clean the sticky gummy materials from the blade using warm water + soap + toothbrush.

The pamor is intact, but I am afraid that cutting edge is becoming too thin, so I did not stain it again but using choji oil as preserver now

now the spiritual side : friend of mine said that this particular keris had some kind of spirit within it, and quite old ... frankly I did not believe such mumbo jumbo, but it is a nice piece ...

specs :

dhapur : nagasasra
luk : 11
pamor : miji timun
tangguh : Mataram nom-noman ??

so without further ado, this is it :

[A. G. Maisey]

Mataram?

Well, I guess it all depends on how we define Mataram.

Satsujinken, your location is noted as Surabaya, you have provided us with a beautiful story, and you use choji oil on your keris.

May I be so bold as to enquire why you use choji oil for your keris rather than one of the traditional Javanese oils ?

Thank you.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Mataram?

Well, I guess it all depends on how we define Mataram.

Satsujinken, your location is noted as Surabaya, you have provided us with a beautiful story, and you use choji oil on your keris.

May I be so bold as to enquire why you use choji oil for your keris rather than one of the traditional Javanese oils ?

Thank you.

yeah ... me too, my first opinion is this one was kamardikan, but since it was already within the family for quite some time, who knows ...

as tangguh is not a measurable concept, in my opinion

now why I used choji oil :

I am an engineer, and knows a bit about preserving blades. Whilst traditional oil are easily bought here, the quality is vary depend on where you buy it. So I use litmus paper as my quality control ...

and my test revealing that majority of the oil for keris sold here is acidic, including several brands of sandalwood oil I tested. Acidic = potentially corrosive

I once bought special oil from friends in Jogjakarta for my keris, first batch is good, second batch is not good as it is acidic. pH is about 4. So basically no standard at all as perhaps it was mixed personally and without proper measurement of ingredients

as we are all aware, apart from the mytical properties of nice-smelling oil, the use of oil is to preserve the blade (and original staining) by protecting it against humidity.

the oil used must also be "friendly" with the ornaments, sheath, pendok, hilt, etc, and acidic oil definitely must be avoided

and since I am also a kenjutsu practicioner, the easiest way in my thought was to revert to the oil that has been successfully protecting japanese blades for centuries - choji (and I have quite a lot of it)

Donny

[satsujinken]

I will try to update the pics of my other keris nagasasra soon ... for comparison, so perhaps member can see the difference in garap, pamor, etc

[Jean]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

yeah ... me too, my first opinion is this one was kamardikan, but since it was already within the family for quite some time, who knows ...

now why I used choji oil :
my test revealing that majority of the oil for keris sold here is acidic, including several brands of sandalwood oil I tested. Acidic = potentially corrosive
as we are all aware, apart from the mytical properties of nice-smelling oil, the use of oil is to preserve the blade (and original staining) by protecting it against humidity.
since I am also a kenjutsu practicioner, the easiest way in my thought was to revert to the oil that has been successfully protecting japanese blades for centuries - choji (and I have quite a lot of it)

Donny

Hello Donny,
From the pictures of your blade (not very clear) and your story, it seems to me that it was probably made in Madura some 30 years ago after the renaissance of the kris making there but other opinions are welcome.
And thank you for the explanation about your preference for choji oil: you are certainly correct that the commercial pusaka oils available in Java are variable in quality and potentially acidic. Regarding choji oil, it seems that it is made from about 1% clove oil diluted into mineral oil, so the difference with pure mineral oil may just be the scent?
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Satsujinken

Logical and perfectly understandable.

I personally prefer oils that smell of sandalwood, but I do not use the keris oils sold in Jawa as these are not at all friendly to anything, I mix my own oil using synthetic sandalwood, natural kenanga and medicinal paraffin. I have no idea of the Ph of this oil, but I've been using it for a very long time with no adverse effects.

If preservation of the blade is the primary consideration, modern gun oils give the best protection, and it is a basic principle of metals conservation that ferric materials should not be stored resting on or against cellulose materials. Wood is cellulose. Blades are best preserved when kept in out of contact with wood, cloth and other similar materials.

In respect of the blade, I would prefer not to comment.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Donny,
From the pictures of your blade (not very clear) and your story, it seems to me that it was probably made in Madura some 30 years ago after the renaissance of the kris making there but other opinions are welcome.
And thank you for the explanation about your preference for choji oil: you are certainly correct that the commercial pusaka oils available in Java are variable in quality and potentially acidic. Regarding choji oil, it seems that it is made from about 1% clove oil diluted into mineral oil, so the difference with pure mineral oil may just be the scent?
Regards

Hello Jean

I incline to think that this blade is newly made, as the level of corrosion is not as the same as old krisses I've seen. But on the other hand, I've seen precious collection which definitely old, certified, owned by people who loved keris yet looked like kamardikan blade in terms of wutuh

Is there other - more reliable method to determine the age of a blade ??
learning about ricikan, corrosion, tantingan, dhapur, garap etc can only gave "approximate" age of a blade.

even though I held the blade in my hand ... I still can be mistaken

and the funny thing is, people tend to be "afraid", even "angry" if their blades was judged as kamardikan or "newly made" ... so that when we asked someone or elder about certain keris, they usually refused to answer if they think it was kamardikan

for me, kamardikan or not, it is still a beautiful, complex and harmonious weapon ... and I wanted our future generations to be able to held the blade, see it with their own eyes instead of looking at its pictures

and yes, only about 1% of the choji is clove oil - and clove oil is acidic, but considering it's only about 1%, overall it is still safe, my litmus paper shows that pH of choji is slightly below 7

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your response Satsujinken

Logical and perfectly understandable.

I personally prefer oils that smell of sandalwood, but I do not use the keris oils sold in Jawa as these are not at all friendly to anything, I mix my own oil using synthetic sandalwood, natural kenanga and medicinal paraffin. I have no idea of the Ph of this oil, but I've been using it for a very long time with no adverse effects.

If preservation of the blade is the primary consideration, modern gun oils give the best protection, and it is a basic principle of metals conservation that ferric materials should not be stored resting on or against cellulose materials. Wood is cellulose. Blades are best preserved when kept in out of contact with wood, cloth and other similar materials.

In respect of the blade, I would prefer not to comment.

Hello Sir

just call me Donny.

about sandalwood oil - do you think it is possible that some older blades got oiled very often, so that even though the blade is cleaned thoroughly, it is still smell like sandalwood ?

I got one old pedang sabet, which was made not as tosan aji, but as weapon, true weapon for battle. and its blade smells like sandalwood, even though I have cleaned it many many times and oiled it with choji ... and it still smells strongly of sandalwood

since I did not believe in magic, I believe that this was due to the pores of the steel that opened up during rust removal process, that sucked up sandalwood oil or powder afterwards and retain it within the structures of the blade, so that the blade smells like sandalwood and able to retain the smell despite regular cleaning

apart from above, this pedang sabet truly able to send shiver down your spine when holding it ... and this is something I found it hard to explain, feeling is almost the same when I held my katana, one that I have known to take human lives before.

back to topic - so basically is it better to store the blade outside its sheath ?? as I plan to make some kind of acrylic stand for my keris with small tags described the blade (name, etc). Silica gel will also help, I think

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Donny, I believe that porous material in a blade soaks up the oil and retains the smell. I have one blade that I bought in Jakarta in 1974 that still has the smell of some sort of oil that was used on it before I bought it; the material in this blade is very porous.

It is best to store any blade outside its scabbard. Technologically capable museums store in temperature and humidity controlled rooms with the objects on glass shelves. I store in plastic sleeves after oiling. If the scabbard is just a little bit loose and the plastic sleeve is not too thick the blade will still enter the scabbard.

Surabaya is a very unfriendly climate for keris and anything else --- people included. Its a hot, wet climate.

I have used silica gel. I've got some big one kilo bags of the stuff that I have in some boxes and chests. It certainly won't do any harm.

If you want to try the plastic sleeves you can buy rolls of plastic sleeving at the plastik shops that sell to people who make food to sell in the markets and off street barrows. It comes in different sizes and thicknesses.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Donny, I believe that porous material in a blade soaks up the oil and retains the smell. I have one blade that I bought in Jakarta in 1974 that still has the smell of some sort of oil that was used on it before I bought it; the material in this blade is very porous.

It is best to store any blade outside its scabbard. Technologically capable museums store in temperature and humidity controlled rooms with the objects on glass shelves. I store in plastic sleeves after oiling. If the scabbard is just a little bit loose and the plastic sleeve is not too thick the blade will still enter the scabbard.

Surabaya is a very unfriendly climate for keris and anything else --- people included. Its a hot, wet climate.

I have used silica gel. I've got some big one kilo bags of the stuff that I have in some boxes and chests. It certainly won't do any harm.

If you want to try the plastic sleeves you can buy rolls of plastic sleeving at the plastik shops that sell to people who make food to sell in the markets and off street barrows. It comes in different sizes and thicknesses.

thank you for the very useful tips ...

long time ago, I designed an acrylic case for each blade, sealed shut and filled with argon gas (used for stainless steel welding) ... but since each box is quite expensive, I stopped my plan at drawing board

back at this keris

this is comparison from known kamardikan (sumenep blade), with almost similar dhapur with mine above ... and this one is very similar with blade in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16093

you can see that the cutting edge is still pretty thick and intact and overall blade is stout and sturdy

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

back at this keris

this is comparison from known kamardikan (sumenep blade), with almost similar dhapur with mine above ... and this one is very similar with blade in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16093

you can see that the cutting edge is still pretty thick and intact and overall blade is stout and sturdy

Are you presenting these current era keris to support your own suggestion that yours is Mataram?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Are you presenting these current era keris to support your own suggestion that yours is Mataram?

nope ...
I stand by my opinion that both are kamardikan, but perhaps the other one has better garap and aged so it may looked older than it actually is, whilst the other is not

this opinion regarding Mataram nom is coming from my friend, a keris collector here in Surabaya

my intention is purely to show comparison and how tangguh is not a measurable concept

perhaps someday technology will enable us to send keris to other member so they can held it in their arms and then send it back in a split second ...

3 D printers ??

[A. G. Maisey]

Of course tangguh is not a measurable concept : it was never intended to be.

It is an opinion.

If you get a number of people with a similar high level of experience you will get minimal variation in opinion on tangguh. Old will never, ever be confused with recent. Surakarta will never be confused with Mataram.

If you get a number of half-baked nitwits providing opinions, especially half-baked nitwits trying to sell keris, you'll get Koripan presented as Mataram Sultan Agung and God alone knows what other stupidity.

The problem is that for many years tangguh has been used incorrectly, by both dealers and collectors, and it has completely moved away from what it was originally intended to provide:- a system that would permit the estimate of an approximate value for an investment property.

It was never intended to be applied to run-of-the-mill keris churned out as a common man's weapon or dress item.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It was never intended to be applied to run-of-the-mill keris churned out as a common man's weapon or dress item.

Perhaps we need to take this statement and place it at as a "sticky" at the top of the forum since it seems to be something that so often needs repeating...

[satsujinken]

so ... can we close this discussion with conclusion that both keris are kamardikan, with different quality garap ??

or perhaps I am mistaken and both are lower end quality ??

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

so ... can we close this discussion with conclusion that both keris are kamardikan, with different quality garap ??

I am afraid discussions are never quite closed, barring transgressions of rules that require such action from the moderation end. While the discussion might well come to some kind of closure for the time being you just never know when a past thread might find new life in the future with added input and data...

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid discussions are never quite closed, barring transgressions of rules that require such action from the moderation end. While the discussion might well come to some kind of closure for the time being you just never know when a past thread might find new life in the future with added input and data...

you're the boss, David
thank you ... I am happy enough with the sharing and the warm welcome

[David]

Well Donny, not so much a matter of being the boss...just the way the forum works...