New Keris/Keris baru

[ariel]

Gentlemen,
I have mentioned earlier my 3 kerises that were once discussed on this Forum ( no special Keris section then :-))

Lew was kind enough to help me in locating this thread, so I am citing it here:


http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001790.html

Please, feel free to comment.
Thanks in advance for your lessons.

[ariel]

Bumping it up for any new opinions about my older :-) kerises.

Many thanks in advance for any input.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ariel, I'd be happy to comment, but I cannot comment from the photos that you have already published, I cannot see the form of the wrongko & hilt in the first keris well enough to know what it is, I cannot see the hilt of the second keris, the third keris looks like a dealer's marriage, but again the photos are not sufficient for me to be certain.

If you could photograph all these again, in good light, open shade, and with your camera at right angles to the item photographed I might be able to comment.

[ariel]

Dear Mr. Maisey,
Many thanks for offering your help.
These are the best pics I could take. Hope they are OK for your eye.

[ariel]

Keris #2

[ariel]

Keris #3

[ariel]

Keris #3 additional pics

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Ariel.

I'll post a comment or two as soon as I have time.

Please address me as Alan.

Thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

Post 94

keris is probably Madura sepuh (old Madura), dress Jogja branggah ( or ladrangan).

Tidy it up a little bit and this would be a pretty decent keris

Post 95

There is no full length photo of the keris or the scabbard

To comment accurately on keris from photos is very difficult, we need to see the keris full length + close up of the sorsoran (the blade base as far as the first luk), and we need to see the scabbard full length. Additional close ups can be useful, but without those full length pics we're only making even wilder guesses than are usual.

Here is my wild guess for post 95, which I might change if I see a couple of full length pics.

This is a dealer's montage. The top of the scabbard (atasan) is a Solo gayaman, but the motif on the pendok is a Jogja motif, I can't see the full pendok, but my bet is that its a Jogja pendok. We do not fit Jogja pendok to Solo scabbard. The hilt looks like some sort of Peninsula or Sumatera or Bugis hilt, I do not have sufficient knowledge of variation in this hilt style to comment accurately. The material might be shell, which would make it pretty desirable. The cup under the hilt ( I hesitate to call it a pendongkok) is totally incorrect, it doesn't belong here. It was probably made in East Jawa.
The keris itself (ie, the blade) looks like it might be pretty OK. From what I can see I'm guessing Pajajaran. Clean it, stain it, give it a decent set of clothes. If the hilt is shell, clean and mount as a cabinet piece, by itself.


Post 96

Another dealer's montage.

In spite of the crack this is a nice hilt. The hilt cup does not belong with this hilt. I'd suggest that you demount the hilt, give it a good hand rub with baby oil, and mount as a cabinet piece. Hilt is Madura of course, but it displays both Sumenep and Pamekesan characteristics, I'd need to think about this a bit before I committed myself on origin.
The atasan of the wrongko looks like somebody's idea of a Palembang atasan, the pendok is Central Jawa it has a Jogja motif, might be Jogja, might be Banyumas, need to see it full length, but whatever it is it does not belong with this scabbard or hilt.
The keris itself is possibly old Madura ( Madura Sepuh) and not bad.

The two keris in posts 95 and 96 should be stripped of their dress and given new decent quality scabbards and hilts. They are worth treating with a modicum of respect.
The keris in post 94 just needs a little bit of tidying up.

I do appreciate that you made an effort to give me pics I could work with Ariel, but those full length shots are essential.:- full length blade, full length scabbard, close up of sorsoran, camera at 90 degrees to subject; hilts can be difficult, because a Jogja hilt and a Solo hilt can easily be confused if the side profile cannot be clearly seen, with figural hilts we need to be able to see the front and side, possibly a front three-quarter shot is the most useful.

Actually, these three keris are nice start for a collection. It is not at all unusual for the various component parts of a full keris to be mixed as two of yours are. About the only way to avoid this is to buy from specialist dealers, and even then some incorrect mixing can occur, mostly to satisfy the whims of buyers.

[ariel]

Dear Alan,
Many thanks!
More questions:

- How does one recognize hilt material as "shell"? I am mostly into Islamic ( broadly speaking) swords and have never seen shell handle. Any specific features I should be looking for? How to clean it properly?


- Cleaning the blades. Even I understand that sandpaper is an absolute no-no :-) Would toothbrush with WD-40 be sufficient? How to stain them afterwards? Not arsenic, I hope?

- Based on what you see ( or any new pics, if needed), the condition of the blades, styles etc, any wild guess how old they might be?

[A. G. Maisey]

The "shell" used for keris hilts is the thick base section of giant clam. It is heavy, like stone, hard, white, dead cold in the hand. It is far heavier than ivory or bone or denatured antler.

To clean it depends on what is making it dirty. I usually start by rubbing with baby oil and work up from there to more volatile substances. You do need a bit of experience to understand what will help and what will hinder, but you've probably already got this from working on other weapons.

There have been thousands of words written in this forum on how to clean and stain keris blades. I don't know where all the threads are, but probably somebody who keeps notes will be able to help. Sorry, I don't keep any record or note of anything I just answer each matter as it arises.

Ariel, with keris we really don't talk in terms of "how old", we talk in terms of "classification", or "tangguh". Most people like to use the tangguh system as representative of age, and to a limited degree this can work, but the further back in time that we move from today, the less realistic is the estimate of age. I am not prepared to give an estimate of age on any of your keris, except to say that they are old. They are not "good keris", as has often been discussed here, but they are very solid examples that could form the basis of a serious collection.

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by ariel

How does one recognize hilt material as "shell"?

please search for tridacna, it might help, it has been discussed several times here

[ariel]

Yup, you are correct. Same appearance.
Tridacna.... Never would have thought....
Thanks to both of you!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ariel

Yup, you are correct. Same appearance.
Tridacna.... Never would have thought....
Thanks to both of you!

Lucky bugger ...

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ariel

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

I got the Groneman's book. Essentially, it is the translation of the original one into English, with all the original illustrations. Only the editors provided a lot of additional gorgeous color photographs from several Dutch museums and from private collectors. I guess the meaning of a "good keris" became a bit more understandable to me :-)

They are all with provenance, all came to the Netherlands al least in the beginning of the 20th century, with totally intact blades, a lot of gold, gems and even diamonds etc.

What is surprising to me, and totally consistent with what Alan said earlier, none have even the slightest attempt to pinpoint their age. Being a collector of other weapons, I am totally flabbergasted: such an omission would be unthinkable in the field of Middle Eastern/Indian/ Caucasian weapons, and AFAIK, the Chinese/Japanese/ and even European collectors would agree with me.

Oh boy.... You the "kerisologists" are way, way different from the rest of us.

I am still very uneasy with the idea of collecting ethnic weapons that were manufactured yesterday simply because they were made according to old traditions, or have a neatly carved handle, or a scabbard made of a particularly good wood, or putting a 500 y.o. weapon on the same scale of importance ( not necessarily monetary, but historic) with a 100 y.o. one....



Taking into account that keris was largely a ceremonial/magic object, perhaps what I am collecting is " historical weapons", while you are into " indonesian art/craft/ethnography". That was exactly what Groneman was trying to preserve when he wrote his articles.


Different languages, different criteria..... Fascinating...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Ariel, the way you put it is certainly the way it would be seen by somebody who did not have a Javanese based understanding of the keris.

I'm going to try to clarify this seeming conundrum a little, but I cannot speak for all others here, so I'm guessing that there will be some remarks additional to mine.

Groneman wrote in the 19th century, and at that time collectors in the western world of Europe and the UK were flat out collecting exotic Eastern edged weaponry, and a lot of this eastern edged weaponry was still brand new at that time. It didn't seem to matter to those 19th century gentlemen whether the peshkabz, khanjar , tulwar, or keris was old or new, the main thing was it was exotic, and they wanted to drape their libraries with exotic Eastern weaponry.

At that time---19th century--- these swords and daggers were still being used to hack up the soldiers of Good Queen Vicki. They were current ethnographic weaponry.

I recently had the opportunity to closely examine a number of very early provenanced keris in European museums. Keris which had provenance going back in some cases to around 1600 or before. Some of those keris were still in pristine, just off the work-bench condition. These 300 year old plus keris originally belonged to people like the Medicis and the Danish Royal family. Seems they had no problem with having brand new keris in the curiosity cabinets.

The current preference of many weapons collectors for "old" can probably be explained by the fact that the weapons they collect relate to a past age, thus they are antique collectors with a preference for weaponry, rather than weapons collectors per se.

Fast forward to 2012. In Jawa and other keris bearing societies the keris is still current ethnographic weaponry, just as those other sharp pointy things were a couple of hundred years ago. However, they seldom get used to hack up pale skinned visitors these days. It is my experience that although people in western societies who collect keris do not discriminate against keris from the current era, many do have a preference for older keris. Most collections that I know of are a mixture of old keris and new keris, with the criteria usually being personal liking for a piece, followed by personal affordability.

But here is the problem with good, old keris:- there quite simply were never very many of them, and with the passing of time they have become less and less, and the truly old, truly good keris that are left today are almost all locked into a closed circle of elite collectors. When they change hands for actual money, the sums involved are frightening. Vastly more than most collectors in the Western world could, or would pay for a keris. So, if a collector wants a really good keris that is artistically pleasing he does not have any option other than to buy current era production, similarly if he wants perfect examples of complex pamor he must buy current era production; if he wants complicated dhapur, he must buy current era production.

On the other hand, if he is satisfied with worn, second rate keris that have somewhere between no and very little artistic excellence, provided they are old, then he can satisfy his collecting needs for "old", without a lot of difficulty.

Most people do appreciate good, old keris. It doesn't matter if those people live in Jawa or in a Western society, but good old keris are few and far between and they cost. Bigtime.

It is not accurate to say that keris collectors do not take any account of the concept of "old". They do, but the way in which they think of "old" is related to tangguh, not to time as you understand it. Javanese indigenous history is a mixture of probable fact and definite myth. This history is recorded in court histories called babads, it is often very difficult to determine where fact stops and myth or legend begins. These babads are related to the era of the ruler and kingdom in which they were produced, so if we were to ask a Javanese keris expert how "old" a particular keris was, and that keris was late 16th century from Central Jawa, the Javanese keris expert would not say "late 16th century, Central Jawa", he would say "Mataram Senopaten", provided the characteristics matched his idea of what a Mataram Senopaten keris looked like.

This system of classification runs all the way back 8th, 9th, 10th century, but here is the catch:- the further back in time you go, the less likely the believed age is to accurately relate to the actual time passed. Eventually you get back to a mythical era and location, and this is the ultimate test of the true believer.

Many, if not most Javanese keris experts take the supposed age based on tangguh with a grain of salt, but the precise age is not relevant, what is relevant is the supportable classification, and a part of the classification has to do with relative age. This means that an old tangguh classification will always relate to an old keris, and a new tangguh classification will always relate to a more recent keris, but the relationship is relative, not truly able to be defined in terms of years as you understand a year.

The Javanese and Balinese traditional mind still functions as a magic world-view in traditional matters.

So age is important, its just that it is thought of in a different way to the way in which you think of age.

Recent keris do not compete with old keris, but if a collector wants excellence then he really has no choice but to buy recent. When he does this he is collecting ethnographic art, which is as valid right now as it was 300 years ago when the Medicis were also collecting ethnographic art --- amongst other things, mainly power and money..

I apologise for the length of this post. I do hope you managed to get through it and that it has perhaps provided a slightly more rational position from which to consider the study and/or collection of keris.

[David]

Thanks Alan, you summed that up nicely...

[ariel]

Thanks, Alan, for a nice explanation. Every old thing in the world was new at some time. Even you and I were young many years ago :-)


As you said
"The Javanese and Balinese traditional mind still functions as a magic world-view in traditional matters.

So age is important, its just that it is thought of in a different way to the way in which you think of age."

That's exactly what I meant: there is a profound difference between the rational Western mind and the more "magic-oriented" Oriental one. Nothing derogatory here, just the fact. And of all the "Oriental" traditions, the Indonesian view of weapons is perhaps the most " magical" one. Even in India, Japan, or the Middle East newly-made weapons are not considered " authentic". Well, perhaps the Japanese are still willing to pay big money for newly-made swords of exceptional quality, but even they venerate only the really antique ones.

Collecting Kerises requires a dramatic reformatting of one's mind and scale of values.... Tough....
BTW, does the same applies to any other Indonesian weapons? Or is it only the keris that stands alone?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Groneman wrote in the 19th century...

Yes, he certainly did but his article "Der Kris der Javaner" was published between 1910 and 1913 so well into the 20th century and only few decades before my time....
As David said, you wrote an excellent summary of the keris collector's dilemma, thanks!

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't think that we can use comparisons of attitudes to other weaponry to try to find similarities with the keris. A newly made keris can still be authentic, but it depends upon the aspect under consideration. It is even possible for a newly made keris to be regarded in the same, or similar light to a pusaka keris, if that newly made keris has incorporated a part of a pusaka keris into its forging, or if the essence of a missing pusaka keris is called into its newly made vessel. This is perhaps what happened with the pusakas that disappeared after the sacking of Kartosuro and then reappeared again in Surakarta some years later.

When we set out to collect, or to study, the keris, there are at least two different roads that we can take:- we can simply collect and focus on the object itself, or we can attempt to understand the object. To understand the object we probably need to gain at least a minimal understanding of the culture surrounding it. However, if we progress past that level of minimal understanding it is possible that we may find that our rational Western mind is in fact no more rational than the mind of the people who are a part of keris culture.

Our Western rationality has developed within the framework of our society, and within that framework it is realistic to accept that the way we think and reason is rational. However, our Western rationality is to a large degree irrational and thus non-functional in a society that is based upon different precepts and concepts.

Some of the values that apply to the keris also apply to other Indonesian weaponry, however, the keris is unique in its position as a societal icon.

[Bjorn]

Just to revive this thread on keris kemardikan I'd like to share a photo I came across on Toni Junus' Facebook page.


This keris won the SNKI Keris Award for The World in 2010.

Name: Kanjeng Kyai Singa Kura
Dhapur: Singa Kura Bener
Pamor: Jarot Asem

My main attraction to this keris is due to its slender shape and intriguing pamor, which is at the same time simple and complex. I think I would have liked the blade better without the singa-kura gandik, but that's personal preference. Does anyone know if there is any symbolism behind the lion-tortoise combo or is it just for show?

Hopefully other members will have more interesting modern keris to share.

[shadejoy]

Unfortunately I can't give any insights on what the animal characters represent or symbolize. But I agree, beautiful pamor and a complex one at that. A Balinese Empu (Pande) recently finished creating a Keris with this fine pamor on my request. I couldn't be happier.

[A. G. Maisey]

A Balinese pande made a keris with this pamor?

Incredible!

The lion-tortoise on the keris shown is purely for artistic ornamentation, however if interpreted in older representations, the lion can be associated in Hindu belief with warriors, in Chinese belief they are a protective motif.

Prajapati, the First Being became a tortoise to have a child, and he supports the universe. I think that the elements of the universe also are carried by his body --- not certain on this.

Later, Wisnu became a tortoise (Second Incarnation) so his shell could support Mount Mandhara.

Both these motifs are loaded with symbolism, its just a matter of how they are interpreted.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A Balinese pande made a keris with this pamor?

Interesting interpretation.

Yes, Pande Made Gde Suardika.

It took a little over 11 months and as strange as it may sound (..or careless, depends on how you look at it) never once did I ever communicate with him in person during the time.

I very much agree in one of the old threads implying that Kamardikan Kerises seldom get much appreciation as what they truly deserve compare to old Kerises.

[A. G. Maisey]

So Shadejoy, this keris that you have shown us is the product of Pande Made Gde Suardika ?

Superb work, and an immense advance upon the work that I have previously seen attributed to this maker. Truly incredible.

Thank you very much for permitting us to see this keris.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So Shadejoy, this keris that you have shown us is the product of Pande Made Gde Suardika ?

That is correct.

Are you implying that you've seen his past work(s)? You make me real curious. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could share any documentations.

To be frank, I had never seen his work before. All things that lead me to him were just some articles and pages I came across courtesy of the big world wide web.

The other reason was because I was so disappointed of an Empu from Imogiri, Yogyakarta (I'm pretty sure I mentioned him in my old posting). He originally took my request but communication was so horrible and I had to end it. Strangely enough, I think you had forewarned me about doing any deals with Javanese which I didn't take it too seriously back then.

Anyhow, I am lucky to have known Bli Pande (Pande Made Gde Suardika) and think of him nothing but high regards.

One of the pics was taken during recent Tumpek Landep day on Oct 18, 2014 right before he sent me the Keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, I'm not implying I've seen blades attributed to him, I'm stating that I've seen blades attributed to him.

I've also seen the work of several other makers from Bali, as well as the work of most makers from Central Jawa who have worked from the mid-1970's through to the present time, in addition I have seen the work of a great many makers from Madura. I have no documentation of most of these makers. That's not what I do, and frankly, I find it completely unnecessary. However, I have spent several months every year in Jawa and Bali for over 40 years, I've seen a lot of makers working, I know several of them as personal friends, and 30 odd years ago I was taught by a couple of the legendary ones.

What amazes me with this keris you have posted photos of is that Pande Suardika could have created this pamor. It is an extremely complex pamor, the Balinese makers in general are known more for the excellence of their carving, rather than their ability in complex pattern welding, and this pamor is about as complex as it gets. For a pamor like this to come from a foundation of next to nothing is purely incredible. The blades I have seen that were attributed to Pande Suardika were very simple mlumah pamors, not highly complex pamors like this one.

Additionally, Pande Suardika is known for his commitment to the creation of blades with a spiritual content, he is not known for creating blades as a commercial undertaking, but rather for creating blades intended for use as a pusaka. His blades are usually quite heavy, and he has a reputation for very detailed work.

However, if I had been asked who I thought might have made this blade Pande Suardika would not have entered my mind.

This keris is an exceptionally fine piece of current era work, but it stuns me that it was produced by Pande Suardika.

[Jean]

Top artistic piece (similar to those displayed in the Neka museum) but frankly this very nice pamor pattern Jarot Asem looks strange to me, as if it was applied on the iron and not traditionally welded, look how perfect the edges are?
Regards

[Rick]

I agree Jean, the pamor looks somehow ....odd .

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, I'm not implying I've seen blades attributed to him, I'm stating that I've seen blades attributed to him.

Good for you.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blades I have seen that were attributed to Pande Suardika were very simple mlumah pamors, not highly complex pamors like this one.

Several months ago (or probably last year) I saw one article mentioning him being commisioned to create a Pusaka for one of the Puris (Temples) in Bali. The Keris was indeed quite simple. I think the pamor that I saw was Pedaringan Kebak, a common pamor in my opinion.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Additionally, Pande Suardika is known for his commitment to the creation of blades with a spiritual content, he is not known for creating blades as a commercial undertaking, but rather for creating blades intended for use as a pusaka. His blades are usually quite heavy, and he has a reputation for very detailed work.

You are right, Pande Made Gde Suardika doesn't have 'inventory'. I certainly consider the Keris that I showed you as Pusaka. But whether the Keris has spiritual content or not is a subjective matter. For me, I couldn't help to admire Bli Pande for his dedication and his disclipine in preserving the esoteric values in Keris-making. Moreover, I wouldn't know a thing about spiritual plane as I am not a spiritual nor religious person. But I don't deny the existence of other form of being that are unseen.

It is also quite interesting to realize once I got the Keris in my hand. The Keris seems to have darker blade compare to Javanese Kerises that I had which brings more contrast to its Pamor. It is without a doubt heavier than any Kerises that I have come across in my possesion and it could be for many reasons. But I do have a perspective that in general, Balinese Kerises tend to be stockier and heavier than Javanese Kerises. But anyone can dispute it as I have also seen a Balinese Keris that is small in size and comparable to Javanese Keris.

Thank you very much Alan and Jean for your appreciation. I am glad I can share this with you.