help is this a real damascus kindjal ?

Rivkin · 27th December 2004, 08:04 PM

Help needed please !

I've just got my most recent acquisition - it's a georgain kindjal, as they sometimes do it has a damascus like pattern in a fuller.

First two photos are from my kindjal (uncleaned fuller), the last one is from a kindjal appraised by oriental-arms (you guys are the best in kindjals !) as a true damascus (fuller has been well cleaned).

Is it the same pattern/same damascus, or mine is just damascene (etched pattern, with pig's fat or wax creating the pattern) ?

Thank you so much !

Yannis · 27th December 2004, 08:45 PM

I feel often "devil's avocat". From the first sight your blade looks more etched than real damascus. Take more opinions to be sure.

If I was you, I would tried some acid on it. 1/3 of vinegar and 2/3 of water for couple of hours would clear the contrast of damascus if any. But take care. Only on the blade and NOT on hilt. And clean it very well after that, dont leave any trace of acid or water on the steel.

This is only my opinion. Please wait for more expert opinions.

Jeff D · 27th December 2004, 08:47 PM

Hi Rivkin,

Number 1: is an acid etched pattern.
Number 2: has an acid etch I can't tell from the picture if this is on a mechanical or wootz damascus, closer pictures are needed.
Number 3: is not a true damascus (ie. wootz) but is a mechanical damascus (layered steel).

Jeff

tom hyle · 27th December 2004, 10:56 PM

aren't the 1st two photos the same sword? Looks like a faked pattern to me.

Montino Bourbon · 28th December 2004, 03:25 PM

I would say that it looks like etching, especially the first photo; nice detail in the photo, by the way.

Rivkin · 28th December 2004, 04:30 PM

Thank you all very much !

Kindjal will go to ebay in couple of weeks, so I'm switching to "not really my business", also known as "I din't have the third shinsa" mode (well, I'm that dishonest as a seller)

.

Philip · 29th December 2004, 09:19 AM

Photos #1 and #2 appear to be of blades with a contrived damascus effect created with a resist (such as shellac) that is scraped away in places to create the design, then etched so that the protected areas stand proud and polished when the remaining resist is removed after the process is complete.

Photo #3 looks to be the real McCoy, i.e. a "twisted core" pattern-weld which the process seen in #1 and #2 is intended to imitate. The "flow" of the pattern looks right to me, and I note that on the borders of the narrow fullers, you can see a slight serrated or dentate effect, caused when the etching compound (an acid) ate past the resist covering the bevels. I also see a diagonal mark which looks like a lamination flaw (a cold-shut) which seems to follow the diagonal orientation of one of the twisted cores [although smiths attempt to locate the twisted cores as closely as they can to the area occupied by the fullers, they sometimes end up in a wider zone than originally anticipated; I have noticed this in my experience in polishing twist core blades from various cultures].

27th December 2004, 08:04 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	help is this a real damascus kindjal ? Help needed please ! I've just got my most recent acquisition - it's a georgain kindjal, as they sometimes do it has a damascus like pattern in a fuller. First two photos are from my kindjal (uncleaned fuller), the last one is from a kindjal appraised by oriental-arms (you guys are the best in kindjals !) as a true damascus (fuller has been well cleaned). Is it the same pattern/same damascus, or mine is just damascene (etched pattern, with pig's fat or wax creating the pattern) ? Thank you so much ! Attached Images

27th December 2004, 08:45 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I feel often "devil's avocat". From the first sight your blade looks more etched than real damascus. Take more opinions to be sure. If I was you, I would tried some acid on it. 1/3 of vinegar and 2/3 of water for couple of hours would clear the contrast of damascus if any. But take care. Only on the blade and NOT on hilt. And clean it very well after that, dont leave any trace of acid or water on the steel. This is only my opinion. Please wait for more expert opinions.

27th December 2004, 08:47 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rivkin, Number 1: is an acid etched pattern. Number 2: has an acid etch I can't tell from the picture if this is on a mechanical or wootz damascus, closer pictures are needed. Number 3: is not a true damascus (ie. wootz) but is a mechanical damascus (layered steel). Jeff

27th December 2004, 10:56 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	aren't the 1st two photos the same sword? Looks like a faked pattern to me.

28th December 2004, 03:25 PM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I would say that it looks like etching, especially the first photo; nice detail in the photo, by the way.

28th December 2004, 04:30 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you all very much ! Kindjal will go to ebay in couple of weeks, so I'm switching to "not really my business", also known as "I din't have the third shinsa" mode (well, I'm that dishonest as a seller) .

29th December 2004, 09:19 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Photos #1 and #2 appear to be of blades with a contrived damascus effect created with a resist (such as shellac) that is scraped away in places to create the design, then etched so that the protected areas stand proud and polished when the remaining resist is removed after the process is complete. Photo #3 looks to be the real McCoy, i.e. a "twisted core" pattern-weld which the process seen in #1 and #2 is intended to imitate. The "flow" of the pattern looks right to me, and I note that on the borders of the narrow fullers, you can see a slight serrated or dentate effect, caused when the etching compound (an acid) ate past the resist covering the bevels. I also see a diagonal mark which looks like a lamination flaw (a cold-shut) which seems to follow the diagonal orientation of one of the twisted cores [although smiths attempt to locate the twisted cores as closely as they can to the area occupied by the fullers, they sometimes end up in a wider zone than originally anticipated; I have noticed this in my experience in polishing twist core blades from various cultures].