A turn off pistol

[fernando]

A theme that has recently been approached; in this case not a Queen Anne type but a more current pocket style.
This time a British work, no doubt; proof mark included. The barrel marked Rabone Brothers & Co. London.
I am only a bit uncertain as to whether these guys were gun makers or gun retailers.
Does anyone here know or have guns from Rabone Brothers?

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Nice percussion pocket pistol with folding trigger, and in charming patina as well!

I cannot tell you either whether the Rabones were makers or retailers, only that Edward & John Rabone are recorded to have lived in Birmingham, 22 New Buildings, Price St., vom 1866-68.

Is the proof mark that of Birmingham or London? A London address is not given in my sources.

Considering the fact that in those years the firearms market was crowded with cheap Belgian products which were sold to many retailers, with or - preferably! - without Liège proof marks, there is a certain chance that the Rabone Bros. did not manufacture them.

Best,
Michl

[Jim McDougall]

Nice little pistol Nando!
I agree with Michael, these were probably retailers and there were lots of Liege products pouring into these markets. A lot of these types had a belt clip on them as well, pretty handy.

All the best,
Jim

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Is the proof mark that of Birmingham or London?

It appears to be the Birmingham proof mark.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Is the proof mark that of Birmingham or London?

Both, Michl ... as per attached picture.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and there were lots of Liege products pouring into these markets...

I guess not in this case, Jim ... judging by the unequivocal proof marks, i'd say

.

[Matchlock]

Cool, 'Nando,

Proof marks of two different cities?! That seems to be a rare instance!

m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Cool, 'Nando,

Proof marks of two different cities?! That seems to be a rare instance!

m

Oh, no.
They used to often do that; maybe firearms qualification saw different standars in either proof house and therefore dealers saw convenience to prepare the guns to be sold everywhere in the country.

See post #30 here, for one:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=edward

[Matchlock]

Just another proof of the fact that 19th c. arms are definitely none of my focal points.

Michl

[Fernando K]

los punzones son legítimos, de Birmingham, las letras B, P, C y V bajo unos cetros coronados. Te pregunto, si ha mas de ser de cañón desenroscable (turn-off) es de "bala forzada".
Integran mi humilde coleccion, pistolas de chispa (flint) y de percusión, disparador escamoteable (concealed trigger), box-lock, pero con un costado postizo. Particularmente con la de percusión, solo tiene como punzones un número 21, en el cañó (barrel)y en el cuerpo. La de chispa es de "bala forzada", porque hay bastante espacio en el cuerpo, y se debe colocar la bala antes de roscar el cañón.
Apenas tenga las fotos las voy a subir al foro para que se vea la diferencia.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

the proof marks are legitimate, of Birmingham, the letters B, P, C and V on a scepter crowned. I ask you if, besides the barrel being unscreweable (turn-off) is it also "forced bullet" ?
Included in my humble collection are flintlock and percussion examples, with concealed trigger, and box-lock, but with a detachable side. Particularly in the percussion one, the only marks are the number 21 in the barrel and in the body. The flintlock example is "forced bullet", because there is enough space in the chamber, to place the ball before threading the barrel.
As soon as i have the photos i will upload them, so that you can see the difference.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Hi Fernando,
I wouldn't know how to differentiate 'forced' bullet to 'normal' bullet, just by looking to both the chamber and the barrel. I can tell you that this pistol has a smooth bore (no rifling), so probably is not a forced bullet system.
I will expect to see pictures of your examples the soonest you can.
The number 21 in both barrel and body of your percussion pistol could be a code, to screw the right barrel to the right body, when turn off pistols are available in more than one unit, in pairs or more (like pepperboxes = avisperos), to avoid screwing the wrong parts.

[gbxfb]

Hi Fernando,

If you look at the breach of your pistol it will probably be slightly concave so as to hold an oversized ball, say 4 to 5 thou more than the nominal bore size, on top of the central chamber, if the chamber is just overfilled and the ball is sized correctly as the barrel is screwed home it should just nip the ball with the lip of the bore and hold it tight. This will give the 'forced' shot that Fernando K refers. There is a danger of leaving an air gap with this loading method if the ball is undersized or the chamber under filled.
I think that the 21 markings on Fernando K's pistol may be a reference to it's imperial bore size at 21 to the lb or about 15mm. Nice pistol by the way!

Best regards,
Simon.

[Fernando K]

Hola, gbxfb y fernando:

Ahora recuerdo que el número 21 también está punzonado en el martillo. El cañón está rayado (rifled) y presenta en la boca 4 muescas, para introducir una herramienta, normalmente en el molde de balas (turqueza, en castellano). No hay lugar para la carga de pólvora en el cuerpo, de modo que deduzco que el cañón (barrel) solo se desenroscaba para limpieza y la pistola seguía siendo de avancarga.

gbxfb:
¿Que se entiende por "imperial bore size?, ¿se refiere a número de balas por kilogramo?

Próximamente subiré las fotografías.

Afectuosamente. Fernando

Hello, gbxfb and fernando:

Now i remember that the number 21 is also stamped on the hammer. The barrel is rifled and has 4 notches in its mouth, to introduce a tool, normally included in the bullet mould (turquoise in Castilian). No room for the powder charge in the body, so I gather that the barrel will only be unscrewed for cleaning, remainig a muzzleloading gun.

gbxfb:
What do you mean by "imperial bore size?, Are you referring to the number of rounds per kilogram?

I will upload pictures soon.

Affectionately. Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Simon,
Thanks for your input

Originally Posted by gbxfb

Hi Fernando,

If you look at the breach of your pistol it will probably be slightly concave so as to hold an oversized ball, say 4 to 5 thou more than the nominal bore size, on top of the central chamber, if the chamber is just overfilled and the ball is sized correctly as the barrel is screwed home it should just nip the ball with the lip of the bore and hold it tight. This will give the 'forced' shot that Fernando K refers. There is a danger of leaving an air gap with this loading method if the ball is undersized or the chamber under filled.
I think that the 21 markings on Fernando K's pistol may be a reference to it's imperial bore size at 21 to the lb or about 15mm. Nice pistol by the way!

Best regards,
Simon.

I knew what the forced shot is about; even thought that all turn off barrels were so made for such purpose.
The problem is to estimate the concavity dimension of the breech chamber and compare it with the barrel bore, concluding whether the bullet to be loaded is oversized or not ... specialy when dealing with the rusticity of materials; the breech of my example is visibly concave but also not concentric. I have tried to phisicaly check the differences with some balls (spheres) i have, but i miss the ones that could do the job .

.

[fernando]

Hi Fernando

Originally Posted by Fernando K

gbxfb:
What do you mean by "imperial bore size?, Are you referring to the number of rounds per kilogram? ...

gbxfb is surely referring to the bore (gauge) system, which is the number of bullets (balls) per pound. Assuming that your pistol caliber would be 21 bore, that would correspond, as he says, to an approximate 15 m/m caliber.
You can check the caliber of your pistol barrel, although i personaly keep thinking that the 21 is a number and not a measurement. Now that you say that you also see it in the hammer, i would not further suggest that its purpose is the barel/body marriage but that of assembling the various components together, among the several ones made in each lot.

Before production automation was developed, each same gun part was not precisely equal to the next one, so the different components of each gun that were subject to work with precision, were hand adjusted to each other during the making process; this assured that, after the various parts being diverted to finishing treatments, final control and the sort, the number in each component would allow to join back the parts that were tuned to function together.
These numbers usualy seen are very low, as this hand making process was repeated in limited production lots.
Please consider this approach as a suggestion, and not as an exact statement . The process i have described did indeed exist, but i can't guarantee that your number 21 in associated to that.

[Multumesc]

Nice gun. It is a pocket gun from the early 19th century, is manufactured in series and not used in duels.