Wilah nr 4 for identification

Harley · 6th January 2012, 12:45 PM

This is a smaller one 29 cm without pesi, it looks kind of strange because the pesi is not in the middle.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 09:49 PM

In terms of physical characteristics, this blade is Tuban, that is, North Coast, however, it is not typical Tuban, because of its size:- Tuban blades are nearly always quite robust. Possibly this is a boys keris, or perhaps a patrem, however for Tuban I would lean more to a keris for a boy, than for a woman, because of the lack of a kraton association with Tuban. The buntut urang troubles me a little, but I could well look a little different in the hand.

Harley · 6th January 2012, 10:00 PM

Thank you again Alan, can you give me advise for a sheath, or is this also the same as central Java.
And do you think that the blade would look better with a new stain?

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 10:14 PM

In the pic, the stain looks OK on my screen. I doubt that I'd play with it.

As for dress, I don't know. If I had this in my hand and needed to dress it, I'd probably opt for sandang walikat, maybe an East Jawa sandang walikat, but I suspect that you may not be able to do an SW, because you need to use a segrek, and this is a specialist tool that has no counterpart amongst western tools.

You could probably do a look-a-like SW by making the gandar section in two halves and gluing together and into the atasan. You'd have the form, but not the correct construction, because a sandang walikat is carved from a single piece of wood.

Maybe a scaled down East Jawa gayaman would work OK too.

David · 6th January 2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Possibly this is a boys keris, or perhaps a patrem, however for Tuban I would lean more to a keris for a boy, than for a woman, because of the lack of a kraton association with Tuban.

Alan, can i take this to mean that a patrem is only proper for women of the court.

Harley · 6th January 2012, 10:42 PM

OK, thanks then i leave it as it is.

I have seen a wile ago a picture of a walikat sheath, but that one has a lose gandar,or is the word sandang meaning that it is from one piece?
I find the idea of a walikat sheath rather nice, it's a whole different shape.
When i was reading the old topic's i came across a picture of a segrek, till then i had now idea what kind of tool it was.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 11:14 PM

David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself.

Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs.

In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

Harley · 6th January 2012, 11:25 PM

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

regards,
Ben

Jean · 7th January 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.
regards,
Ben

Ben,
These pictures show 2 examples of sandang walikat sheaths (in one piece)matching with a short blade like yours.
Regards

Harley · 7th January 2012, 12:03 PM

Thank you again Jean, these are very nice examples to work from, i hope i can come a little in the near of these ones, but it will be very difficult to make in one piece, the only advantage is that the blade is not so long.

regards,
Ben

David · 7th January 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

A agree, this is also the first time i have heard this and it is very interesting indeed...

PenangsangII · 7th January 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself.

Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs.

In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

Alan, by this statement, wouldnt it be proper also to say that all genuinely old made patrems are kraton empu made?

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

The third one who never heard this!

Very interesting indeed.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 05:14 PM

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade length (without pesi) from 22,5 cm a genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Marcokeris · 7th January 2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Nice! IMO the blade could comes from another more long. I see the blade good for magic, not for woman (...but often magic and women come together

)

sirek · 7th January 2012, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Found this schedule once on the net. (can not confirm if this is true

)
LAME= BLADE
1 CM = 0.39 inch

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Nice! IMO the blade could comes from another more long. I see the blade good for magic, not for woman (...but often magic and women come together

)

Hello Marco,

have had the same thought that it is maybe a reshaped keris which was longer before.

The sheath is with real kendit.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

(...but often magic and women come together

)

As long as is not black magic........

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

Found this schedule once on the net. (can not confirm if this is true

)
LAME= BLADE
1 CM = 0.39 inch

Hello Sirek,

thank you for posting this shedule, think it can be taken as approximate value.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2012, 10:40 PM

Penangsang--- no, not necessarily Kraton mpu made. Just because a woman might be attached to a Kraton this does not make of her somebody of sufficient wealth or rank to be able to use the services of an mpu who is a part of the Kraton hierarchy.

Many abdi dalem are really quite poor people, and even a lot of genuine blood aristocrats are not wealthy, and struggle to make ends meet.

Detlef --- I think this blade has been reshaped, I would not consider this a patrem.

I'm a little surprised that nobody knew the purpose of the patrem, I thought it was something that was general knowledge. To understand the need for a woman to follow her husband or master in death one needs to understand the mindset that applied in pre-Islamic Jawa, and which was continued in Bali until the early 20th century. This mindset was continued to a degree in Javanese kraton society, even after the dominance of Islam, and was one of the reasons for the the discord between Mataram and the clergy which resulted in the massacres of the 17th century. Even today kraton society in Central Jawa reflects a Hindu-Buddhist essence in many respects.

Some insight into the way in which women saw the following of husband or lord into the next world can be gained from "Bali's Early Days", A.A.GDE Putra Agung, ISBN 978-979-1173-13-1

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef --- I think this blade has been reshaped, I would not consider this a patrem.

Thank you Alan, you confirm what I have thought already.

Regards,

Detlef

Harley · 22nd January 2012, 10:30 PM

This is the sheath a couple of days ago, when i saw the picture i found the edge on top and the curl to thick, so i am gonna change that.
I was not easy to do it in one piece, but it was worth the afford.
The hilt i made a couple of weeks back, not very good job, but i have to find a better frais? for the dremel.
Is this a sort of hilt that would be used on this keris, if not, what kind will?

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 22nd January 2012, 11:07 PM

Here are a couple of examples for you Harley.

The scabbard is a good quality, classical, Surakarta sandang walikat.

The two hilts are typical classic sandang walikat, however, these days a great many collectors use the sandang walikat scabbard form as a vehicle to display a finely carved hilt

Harley · 22nd January 2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The scabbard is a good quality, classical, Surakarta sandang walikat.

If the one in your picture is a Surakarta sandang walikat sheath, i hope the one i made is the right choice for this blade?
I can never have enough examples

, thank you Alan.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 23rd January 2012, 12:40 AM

Yes Ben, yours is OK, but take a close look at the front of the scabbard I've posted.

I've seen worse sandang walikats than yours, made in Jawa, by tukang wrongkos, but I do think you could improve the flow and refinement of your SW.

Sajen · 23rd January 2012, 12:56 AM

Hi Ben,

here one more, like you see know Alan the collector world very well!!

Sorry for the hairs on the chair but my cat like to use it when I am absent.

Regards,

Detlef

Harley · 23rd January 2012, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Ben, yours is OK, but take a close look at the front of the scabbard I've posted.

I've seen worse sandang walikats than yours, made in Jawa, by tukang wrongkos, but I do think you could improve the flow and refinement of your SW.

Alan,

Thanks for the compliment!
Jean has placed two pictures of a walikat sheath(post 9), my preference was the first one, i shall post them together for better reference.
The first one in my opinion has not a curved nose as in the other examples, but i could be wrong of course.
And i think if it needs to, i can adjust it.

Thank you Detlef,

Never mind the cat hairs, i've 3 German Shepherds, so i'll have my fair amount of hairs

regards,
Ben

6th January 2012, 12:45 PM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Wilah nr 4 for identification This is a smaller one 29 cm without pesi, it looks kind of strange because the pesi is not in the middle. regards, Ben Attached Images

7th January 2012, 05:14 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Alan, could be this keris by a blade length (without pesi) from 22,5 cm a genuine patrem keris? Regards, Detlef Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 7th January 2012 at 09:14 PM.

22nd January 2012, 10:30 PM	#22
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	This is the sheath a couple of days ago, when i saw the picture i found the edge on top and the curl to thick, so i am gonna change that. I was not easy to do it in one piece, but it was worth the afford. The hilt i made a couple of weeks back, not very good job, but i have to find a better frais? for the dremel. Is this a sort of hilt that would be used on this keris, if not, what kind will? regards, Ben Attached Images

22nd January 2012, 11:07 PM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Here are a couple of examples for you Harley. The scabbard is a good quality, classical, Surakarta sandang walikat. The two hilts are typical classic sandang walikat, however, these days a great many collectors use the sandang walikat scabbard form as a vehicle to display a finely carved hilt Attached Images

23rd January 2012, 12:56 AM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Ben, here one more, like you see know Alan the collector world very well!! Sorry for the hairs on the chair but my cat like to use it when I am absent. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th January 2012, 09:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In terms of physical characteristics, this blade is Tuban, that is, North Coast, however, it is not typical Tuban, because of its size:- Tuban blades are nearly always quite robust. Possibly this is a boys keris, or perhaps a patrem, however for Tuban I would lean more to a keris for a boy, than for a woman, because of the lack of a kraton association with Tuban. The buntut urang troubles me a little, but I could well look a little different in the hand.

6th January 2012, 10:00 PM	#3
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you again Alan, can you give me advise for a sheath, or is this also the same as central Java. And do you think that the blade would look better with a new stain? regards, Ben

6th January 2012, 10:14 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In the pic, the stain looks OK on my screen. I doubt that I'd play with it. As for dress, I don't know. If I had this in my hand and needed to dress it, I'd probably opt for sandang walikat, maybe an East Jawa sandang walikat, but I suspect that you may not be able to do an SW, because you need to use a segrek, and this is a specialist tool that has no counterpart amongst western tools. You could probably do a look-a-like SW by making the gandar section in two halves and gluing together and into the atasan. You'd have the form, but not the correct construction, because a sandang walikat is carved from a single piece of wood. Maybe a scaled down East Jawa gayaman would work OK too.

6th January 2012, 10:42 PM	#6
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	OK, thanks then i leave it as it is. I have seen a wile ago a picture of a walikat sheath, but that one has a lose gandar,or is the word sandang meaning that it is from one piece? I find the idea of a walikat sheath rather nice, it's a whole different shape. When i was reading the old topic's i came across a picture of a segrek, till then i had now idea what kind of tool it was. regards, Ben

6th January 2012, 11:14 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself. Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs. In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

6th January 2012, 11:25 PM	#8
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it. What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that regards, Ben

7th January 2012, 12:03 PM	#10
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you again Jean, these are very nice examples to work from, i hope i can come a little in the near of these ones, but it will be very difficult to make in one piece, the only advantage is that the blade is not so long. regards, Ben

7th January 2012, 10:40 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Penangsang--- no, not necessarily Kraton mpu made. Just because a woman might be attached to a Kraton this does not make of her somebody of sufficient wealth or rank to be able to use the services of an mpu who is a part of the Kraton hierarchy. Many abdi dalem are really quite poor people, and even a lot of genuine blood aristocrats are not wealthy, and struggle to make ends meet. Detlef --- I think this blade has been reshaped, I would not consider this a patrem. I'm a little surprised that nobody knew the purpose of the patrem, I thought it was something that was general knowledge. To understand the need for a woman to follow her husband or master in death one needs to understand the mindset that applied in pre-Islamic Jawa, and which was continued in Bali until the early 20th century. This mindset was continued to a degree in Javanese kraton society, even after the dominance of Islam, and was one of the reasons for the the discord between Mataram and the clergy which resulted in the massacres of the 17th century. Even today kraton society in Central Jawa reflects a Hindu-Buddhist essence in many respects. Some insight into the way in which women saw the following of husband or lord into the next world can be gained from "Bali's Early Days", A.A.GDE Putra Agung, ISBN 978-979-1173-13-1

23rd January 2012, 12:40 AM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Ben, yours is OK, but take a close look at the front of the scabbard I've posted. I've seen worse sandang walikats than yours, made in Jawa, by tukang wrongkos, but I do think you could improve the flow and refinement of your SW.