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12th June 2011, 04:35 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Mystery knife 'Turkish' / Facon?
This is the one that Norman mentioned. It wasn't part of the SEA collection of course.
It was described as 'Turkish' and 18thC but as Norman pointed out, has a somewhat 'gaucho' look. I'm at a loss with it? Any help appreciated. Last edited by Lew; 12th June 2011 at 07:43 PM. |
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13th June 2011, 01:02 AM
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#2 | |
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Member
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Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
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Quote:
"Turkish" due to the very stylized, star and crescent  may be ... with a lot of imagination, because this knife by it self, hasn't the characteristic of his supposed origin ... Ottoman unless this is a Turk immigrant in Argentina in 18th, who has order it to an Argentinian blacksmith  this knife, very attractive, was longer belong to a "gaucho" than to a Turk, in my humble opinion  ā + Dom |
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13th June 2011, 01:14 AM
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#3 | |
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Quote:
He's normally quite knowledgeable, so it threw me somewhat and I started to wonder if it WAS some strange variant from some far flung corner of Ottoman influence that I'd not seen before.
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13th June 2011, 02:48 AM
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#4 | |
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EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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13th June 2011, 04:47 AM
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#5 |
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Member
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Location: Australia
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Hi Gene,
This is a tricky one. Are the furnishings made from silver? Cheers Chris |
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13th June 2011, 08:47 AM
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#6 | |
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Quote:
Hi Chris I haven't done much to it yet, but they do seem to be....  Best Gene |
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13th June 2011, 10:52 AM
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#7 |
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Member
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Location: Australia
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Hi Gene,
I must confess that the overall shape looks South American and if it is silver.... But the only Argentinean typology that it approximates is what they call a Puņal Salteņo, Salta being a mountainous province quite different from the Pampa plains where mainstream Gaucho culture prevailed. These were shorter than those used in the flatlands and generally of rough manufacture, though notable exceptions exist. One feature of yours which is strongly at odds with classical era Argentinean sheaths is the inch wide loop on the scabbard for the belt to pass through; The local preference for carriage being the insertion of the knife and sheath between the belt and the small of the back, with a tang that engages with the said belt and allows the tucking and withdrawal of the sheath and knife without having to undo the belt. I am not familiar with the decorative pattern on the scabbard and other contributors to this forum may be able to better identify its origins. Something to keep in mind that large numbers of migrants swelled the population of Argentina from the second half of the 19th century onwards, many coming from the Middle East, so it is entirely possible, as Dom suggested, that it was made to the order of, or by, an immigrant from that part of the world. For reference look at page 95 of Doemench's Dagas de Plata. Unfortunately my scanner is down at the moment, so I cannot help with examples of the genre. Cheers Chris |
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14th June 2011, 01:33 PM
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#8 |
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Member
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Location: The Sharp end
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Hi Chris,
So it's a bit of a mystery! You'd say from the weight of evidence that it is a 'gaucho' though would you? Thanks Gene |
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15th June 2011, 03:21 AM
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#9 | |
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Location: Australia
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Quote:
Don't know. It is a strange piece. More than anything else, that belt loop sticks in my gullet real bad, and the blade does not appear to have been sharpened or used; Is this correct?. From the photo it also appears that the blade was left in the as forged condition, without subsequent polishing; Again, is this correct? Cheers Chris |
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15th June 2011, 05:05 AM
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#10 | |
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Location: The Sharp end
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Quote:
Hi Chris Funny you should ask  I actually had the same thoughts about the sharpening when I first saw it. It has a single edge which is brutally sharp, but to first glance looks fairly recently sharpened. However, there are two distinct areas that were missed in that sharpening that show it always has been sharp on one edge. The steel is quite rough. As you say either poorly finished or left to rust and cleaned at some stage. Width of blade is variable from 1.5mm to 2mm. Generally rough and ready, but rigid like a good carving knife. Thanks Gene |
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15th June 2011, 10:59 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Hi Gene,
If you have a good loupe, have a look at the sharpened edge - Perhaps you can make out if it was sharpened by hand or on a machine. Cheers Chris |
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17th June 2011, 11:13 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
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Quote:
Hand sharpened definately. Here's the back end where it was only ever 'partially sharp' and the later sharpening starts about 2" from the guard. You can see the old patina and scratches from the earlier sharpenings. Best Gene |
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18th June 2011, 05:50 AM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 682
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Hi Gene,
The Argentinean silversmiths usually fashion the hollow handle from a single sheet of silver or German silver, with a soldered seam running along its length. The blade is fastened to the handle's tang by means of pouring molten cutler's rosin into the hollow. Criollo (Creole) blades have a substantial button on at the heel of the blade, where it meets the handle and its shape is a ready identifier of its origins. No hard and fast rules, but this is how the vast majority were made. Beyond this, knives were made in Europe for Sth American use. Cheers Chris |
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