Question about a briquet

[M ELEY]

Yes, the briquet pictured was very common, but an earlier French form that came out in the late 18th was rarer and had a nice look to it.

The iron hilt is the one we were discussing and still no diffinitive answer. Some classify them as naval, others as possible Brit Life Guards and, of course, the Mountain Artillery swords of the later 19th c.

[M ELEY]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This one is a cleaver fake (or should we say a misrepresentation). It appears to be the Starr m1826 naval cutlass. It's blade is spot-on with curved edge, unstopped fuller, guard with curved outer edge. Gilkerson mentions that reproductions of this sword were made awhile back and are being passed off either on purpose or accident as authentic. Note the wood grip, which appears old, should be ribbed iron for this model and that any of the Starr swords made after 1812 were NOT for private use, so thus would be marked with a "N Starr". Another example of how easy it is to be fooled with this tricky area of collecting-

[Ron Anderson]

Hi

I have just been skimming the edges of this conversation but having read the replies in a little more detail can now appreciate what this discussion has been about.

Sidearms aren't really my thing, I must admit. Jim seems to have a good handle on the iron hilted sword and I can't really add much to that, except to say that it is a nice sword.These departmental sidearms seem pretty rare.

Though you seem more interested in naval items, it's not a bad sword in its own right, and just a pity there's no scabbard.

Going back to the briquet (if you'll forgive me) I do believe it is a German briquet. At least the hilt is German. I'm pretty sure of this, as the very last rib is thicker than the others – and only the German pattern, I think M1879, looked like this. I can't recall exactly which German states - I believe most if not all of them.

So the sword may not be a reproduction after all, but as suggested part of Bannerman's handiwork. As it was used until almost the end of the 19th century, the fullered blade is perhaps not that surprising. After all, this briquet was introduced far later than the others (the russian one was introduced in the 1820s, and most of the others also far earlier)

So perhaps this was an American sword imported from Europe after all. It would have been well after the Civil War though, so one has to ask 'why'.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Dear M Eley

I'm a new member. Sorry to get to this thread late. I don't recognise the markings on your briquet. However, these were imported into the USA, mainly it seems from Russia. I think these may have been used in the civil war. Can't be sure. However, I've purchased a Russian example from the US recently and have seen quite a few available from there.

So it's not impossible it's a Russian import marked in the US.

Ron

Russia didn't export anything to the US or the CS during the American Civil War. No swords, no guns, nothing.

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Dmitry

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it was imported during the civil war. It may have been imported before the civil war.

If so, it may have been used during the war.

I have a briquet I purchased from America. It is Russian but it has the markings CA on it and I've been told this is associated with the civil war.

Since then I have seen dozens of briquets for sale from America, all Russian and all with the marking CA on the blade.

Ron

[Dmitry]

Russia never exported any arms to the US, or anywhere else, aside from probably just the Kingdom of Bulgaria, which was even less industrially-developed. In fact, quite the opposite, the US companies exported arms into Russia, and later into the Soviet Union.
The briquet with the CA marking that you have sounds like a an Italian bersaglieri or police hanger from the WWII period or thereabout, and is indeed quite abundant.

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Dmitry

The item is in storage currently and unfortunately I don't have a photo. However, it is certainly not from WW2. It is an early 19th century briquet - this is blatantly obvious from both its condition and its patina. It matches the Russian 1817 model briquet exactly. Which doesn't surprise me, because that is what it was described as when I bought it.

I have been collecting swords for 25 years and I know the difference between a ww2 sword and a sword from the early to mid 19th century.

This sword is the Russian pattern.

That doesn't necessarily mean it was manufactured in Russia. It could have been made in Solingen, and the US certainly imported swords from there. However, there is no such marking to confirm one way or another.

Ron

[Dmitry]

Is that it?

[Ron Anderson]

Yes, that it is it.

[Ron Anderson]

Correction, no that is not it.

Mine has a flat blade.

[Ron Anderson]

The blade of my sword has darkened with age. Otherwise, yes - the hilts are similar.

[Ron Anderson]

Well Dmitry

It appears you are right and I am wrong.

I will check my sword again. I am surprised.

The sword appeared to be much much older.

Regards
Ron

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Well Dmitry

It appears you are right and I am wrong.

I will check my sword again. I am surprised.

The sword appeared to be much much older.

Regards
Ron

Things often appear older than they really are. We've all been burned. Those who say they haven't, are lying.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Things often appear older than they really are. We've all been burned. Those who say they haven't, are lying.

Sure thing .

[Ron Anderson]

Well, thanks, Dmitry.

It could've stayed for years in my colllection without me realising what it really was.

Fortunately, it was not expensive. And I don't really mind hanging to such a thing. Though I would've preferred it be an early Russian briquet.

Regards
Ron

[celtan]

Hola Nando, Ron and Dmitry,

I have three of these babies. One spanish from 1870s, longer. The second italian, from the carabinieri (CA on the area of the ricasso, G and 19 on the upper area of the crossguard ) showing a thick blade spine near the ricasso. The third similar to the second one but with a rather thinner blade , its scabbard being very similar to the CA, although the leather stitches are different. And yet, since the CA blade's spine is much thicker, it won't fit in the third one's, even though they do look very similar.

I haven't been able to ID the third one. Italian?

How does the bersaglieri's differ from the carabinieri's?

Any suggestions?

Best

M

[David R]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Little-known fact - the naval attribution of that chest of arms was contested and disproved in a lengthy article in one of the Royal Armouries Yearbooks; I forget for which year, but I can find out.

Apparently the chest was the "Estate Arms Chest" for a wealthy magnate during the Chartist period in the UK.....

[Morgan]

I am piggy backing on this thread because one of the patterns of briquet pictured here interest me as well. Here are some more pics of what might be a german briquet. It has only unit markings on the bottom of the hilt, and also a fullered blade. I have heard that the Russians and Spanish had fullered blade on their briquets sometimes. It has the narrower, less rounded version of the knuckle-guard.There are only 26 ribs on the grip by the way.

[Morgan]

I am adding to this rather old thread as I have been doing some research on this type of sword due to a briqet/sabre/cutlass I acquired. I originally thought it might be an infantry NCO sword. It has a blade that is 26 and 1/4th inches long and over 1 3/8 inches wide at forte. It has a two finger wide fuller on both sides. I feel that it is a late 18th early 19th century blade. Wonderful look and balance. Great blade! The whole sword is covered in a lacquer that could have either been put on by the museum that owned it (there is a cursive numbering on the forte in white ink that suggests a museum) or perhaps by naval personnel if I ascribe to the idea that this sword was for a ships armoury. I have left the lacquer on at this point. The hilt poses some questions for me. It has no markings on it at all, however the grip has 28 ribs as the French ones do. I compared it to my 1816 briquet and there are differences in dimensions and weight. The 1816 has a larger and heavier hilt. I have posted some pics. One pic is my new briquet/sabre by itself. The other pics are the hilts of both for comparison. The 1816 pattern is on the right in both pics. Perhaps this pattern on my new one will be familiar to someone. I'd like to know what date/nationality the hilt might be from or is they have seen this hilt/blade configuration before and in what context. Worse case scenario is the hilt is "modern" but I'm not sure how to tell.....P.S. I'm a different Morgan than the one on the prior post.