Unknown pamor

[Jean]

Dear friends,
What is this rare pamor on a blade from Solo?
I got 3 very different opinions from recognized experts, which I will tell you after getting yours.
Best regards
Jean

[Marcokeris]

VERY NICE
never seen like this
IMO There is something about Untuk Banju inside (but only a little)

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

VERY NICE
never seen like this
IMO There is something about Untuk Banju inside (but only a little)

Dear Marco,
Haha, a fourth different opinion then! Thanks, I will wait for other opinions to indicate those which I received.
Best regards
Jean

[drdavid]

Similar to ganggeng kanyut perhaps
drdavid

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot immediately recognise what the maker was trying to produce.

We may be looking at a unique design, we may be looking at a failed attempt, or we may be looking at a variation of a conventional motif.

I will need to spend some time on analysis of this pamor motif before I am prepared to comment.

It goes without saying that working from a photograph is very far from being an ideal situation. This blade should really be examined under magnification and from a number of angles, in order to form an opinion.

Incidentally, in my opinion this blade was not made in Solo. It may have "come from Solo", but it was not produced there. Most likely point of origin is Madura.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry, I cannot name this pamor.

Since my earlier post I have spent a lot of time looking at the images, and my reference material.

The images do not tell me how this pamor material was manipulated, which I would need to know to have some chance of naming it.

On first impression it looks like a double twist welded side by side and with indentation,or perhaps with an additional "lawe setukal" bend process added in, but used in a different orientation, but when you look at the grain flow it seems as if it could be patches of material placed together.

The only way I could be certain about what I was looking at would be by physical examination using magnification. Without this facility I cannot give an opinion.


However, if somebody threatened to stick hot needles under my fingernails in the absence of an answer, I'd call it a dadung muntir variation.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry, I cannot name this pamor.

Since my earlier post I have spent a lot of time looking at the images, and my reference material.

The images do not tell me how this pamor material was manipulated, which I would need to know to have some chance of naming it.

On first impression it looks like a double twist welded side by side and with indentation,or perhaps with an additional "lawe setukal" bend process added in, but used in a different orientation, but when you look at the grain flow it seems as if it could be patches of material placed together.

The only way I could be certain about what I was looking at would be by physical examination using magnification. Without this facility I cannot give an opinion.
However, if somebody threatened to stick hot needles under my fingernails in the absence of an answer, I'd call it a dadung muntir variation.

Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your thorough investigation of the pamor of this blade (very difficult from pictures only as you say).
Regarding the origin of the blade, it was found in Solo and fitted into a ladrang sheath from Solo (see picture). However the blade could well originate from elsewhere as you said and this may partly explain the difficulty for classifying this pamor. I am personally confident that this is not a recently made replica blade but I could be wrong of course.
Regarding the 3 different opinions received about the pamor style:
. The experienced seller and his expert friends from Solo could not recognize the pamor, however one of them identified it as pamor Kendhi Gumanthung (hanging jars). I only found one reference about this pamor in the Pamoratlas from Emile Van Veenendaal, but it appears as a pamor motif and not a full pamor as this one.
. Emile himself classified it as Lar Gangsir Kasar
. A well-know kris expert from Surabaya (and member of this forum) identified it as Rambut Daradah.
What do you think?

By the way no member of this forum would think of torturing you (except with nasty questions), we need you to much!
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to agree that this is not a recent blade, but again, from pics?

I've frequently been wrong about things working from pics, one of the reasons I'm not prepared to gamble on ebay.

Pamor kendhi gumanthung I do not know, but it suggests a pamor tambal motif.

I considered lar gangsir agal myself, but I finally decided against it because of the repetitive nature with isolated sections that the motif on this blade displays. In lar gangsir you can normally trace grain flow, in your pamor the grain flow is interrupted. Examined under magnification I might --- a big might --- be prepared to accept lar gangsir agal.

I cannot recall hearing nor reading of pamor rambut daradah, rambut is "hair", I do not know the word "daradah".

However, not knowing a name is something that I do not regard as unusual, as pamor names change from area to area, and some pamors will be known in one area and not known in another area. The matter of pamor names can be confused even further by haphazard and irregular naming.

Perhaps 20 years ago I was in a keris dealer's warung in Solo. An agent came in with some keris for sale and after the dealer had selected what he wanted to buy, I in turn bought several from that dealer. I did not recognise the pamor on one of the blades and I asked both the dealer and the agent what it was called. They did not know, and the agent said it was something new that the maker had tried. The dealer suggested that I might like to give it a name, so I named it "tirto tejo". Since that time I have encountered this pamor a number of times, and more often than not the seller will call it tirto tejo.

I really do not think it is a good idea to get too involved with the names given to unusual and non-standard pamor motifs.

[Jean]

Dear Alan,
My first impression was that the pamor is rather continuous and not applied by patches like pamor Tambal for instance but I will check it with magnifying lens (the blade is not with me at present). If it is the case, then pamor Kendhi Gumanthung could be a correct name.
You are correct that assigning the right name to the various pamors is not that easy nor even important but collectors like to classify their wares!
Apparently pamor Rambut Daradah is mentioned in one of the EK's from Pak Bambang but I can't check it from here.
The story of your invention of pamor Tirto Tejo is amazing, congratulations!
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

I found rambut daradah in "Pamor Eksotik", and on your advice I've looked at EK and its there too, but rambut daradah is not like the pamor in your keris.

Essentially it is pamor mrambut but with indented edges. In other words a thin, whispy pamor adeg (which is what pamor mrambut is like), but with irregularly indented edges.

Your pamor appears to be a heavily manipulated twist pattern.

However, if we ignore the segmentation and the compacted joints that appear to indicate a twist, then, yes, there is a similarity to an adeg motif.

It really is essential to have the blade in your hand when you are faced with this sort of situation.

Yes Jean, you're right:- some collectors place a very great importance upon classification, and this is one of the reasons why those people will forever remain as collectors, rather than as students of the keris. My personal approach to understanding a keris is with appraisal of craftsmanship and feeling.Names are a secondary consideration.

What I have been taught about the naming of a pamor is this:-

first understand what the maker did to produce the motif

then understand what the pamor was that he was trying to produce

if there is sufficient resemblance to the motif he was trying to achieve , then you give the motif that name

if there is insufficient resemblance to the desired motif it is a failed motif

if it is not possible to understand the making process, and the pamor does not resemble a known motif , then it is an unknown motif :- go ask the maker --- no, not really, I'm being facetious

Re the tirto tejo story. At the time I gave that name I was not aware that there was a pamor already that was named tirto tejo, but since that time I have come across several different pamor patterns, as well as the one I named, that are all referred to as tirto tejo.

Rather than try to place names on everything, it is, in my opinion, far more important to be able to recognise excellence of execution.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I found rambut daradah in "Pamor Eksotik", and on your advice I've looked at EK and its there too, but rambut daradah is not like the pamor in your keris.

Essentially it is pamor mrambut but with indented edges. In other words a thin, whispy pamor adeg (which is what pamor mrambut is like), but with irregularly indented edges.

Your pamor appears to be a heavily manipulated twist pattern.

However, if we ignore the segmentation and the compacted joints that appear to indicate a twist, then, yes, there is a similarity to an adeg motif.

It really is essential to have the blade in your hand when you are faced with this sort of situation.

Yes Jean, you're right:- some collectors place a very great importance upon classification, and this is one of the reasons why those people will forever remain as collectors, rather than as students of the keris. My personal approach to understanding a keris is with appraisal of craftsmanship and feeling.Names are a secondary consideration.

What I have been taught about the naming of a pamor is this:-

first understand what the maker did to produce the motif

then understand what the pamor was that he was trying to produce

if there is sufficient resemblance to the motif he was trying to achieve , then you give the motif that name

if there is insufficient resemblance to the desired motif it is a failed motif

if it is not possible to understand the making process, and the pamor does not resemble a known motif , then it is an unknown motif :- go ask the maker --- no, not really, I'm being facetious

Re the tirto tejo story. At the time I gave that name I was not aware that there was a pamor already that was named tirto tejo, but since that time I have come across several different pamor patterns, as well as the one I named, that are all referred to as tirto tejo.

Rather than try to place names on everything, it is, in my opinion, far more important to be able to recognise excellence of execution.

Dear Alan,
Thank you for your detailed reply. First regarding the pamor Rambut Daradah, I was already told that it did not look very similar to mine, especially if it is twisted as you noticed.
Your comment about the difference between a kris student (or a kris Guru like yourself if you don't mind) and a kris collector is very relevant, like a non-musician cannot fully appreciate a Polonaise from Chopin for instance.
As you know the majority of us were not exposed to kris making like yourself, we hardly understand how a blade is made even after carefully reading Groneman's book for instance so we can't appraise a blade in the same way as you do from the craftsmanship aspect... However we can still appreciate the result provided that we got some artistic flair and within the limitations of our knowledge, one major obstacle being that we can be easily fooled by fake blades unless yourself.
Again I agree with you that names are not important but this pamor name investigation was very interesting thanks to you!
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you for your comments , Jean.

A guru is simply a teacher, and I would prefer to be known as somebody who attempts to assist by imparting information, rather than to be tagged as a "guru", a designation that in the western world carries a whole lot of baggage with it.

Yes, it is true that I have been fortunate in making the right connections at the right times, and because of this I have gained exposure to knowledge, understanding and training that is not generally available. However, this does not mean that others who have an intense interest in the keris and its culture cannot follow their own path to knowledge. All it requires is committment.

Garrett Solyom once said to me that of the people who have a deeper knowledge of the keris, no one person had a complete understanding, but that we all had a little bit:- "--- none of us has it all, but each of us has a part ---".

This is absolutely true.

Any person who has the committment can further his knowledge of the keris and its culture, and the result will be an addition to overall knowledge.I have my own approach, considerations, and knowledge, but somebody else who has a different mindset will gain different knowledge.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a collector. We all probably began as collectors. However, if we wish to learn, we must study, and study requires a lot more effort than simply accumulating objects.

The difference between a collector of keris, and a student of the keris is the difference between a storeman and an engineer:- both have different skills, and both are essential in the functioning of a major undertaking, but the difference between them is that the storeman can classify perfectly, whilst the engineer understands that which goes into providing the classification.

However, to return to the blade in question.I think we have probably come back to where we began. It really needs a very close examination under magnification by somebody who understands a little bit about pattern welding, after that a firm opinion may be able to be formed.

[Jean]

Dear Alan,
I know bahasa Indonesia a little and I exactly meant guru a a teacher, as many of us consider you in this way. I remember reading your article about the early krisses several years ago, which I found very interesting and which has no equivalent in any book. You have been able to transmit us some knowledge about the kris in a very rational way while being cautious and respectful of the tradition.
Many kris collectors would like and try hard to be students but being away from the kris scene both from the geographic and historical points of view makes it difficult so we rely on you!
I hope that I can show you this blade one day, who knows?
Thank you again and best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

OK Jean, understood. Thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have a friend who is one of the current era's great pattern welders.

He is a modest, and rather retiring man, but he would possibly deny this, however, his body of work speaks for itself.

He is , I think, a member of this Forum, but he prefers not to post to it.

A few days ago he sent me some sketches that set forth his ideas on the way in which this pamor might have been made. These sketches do not, of course, answer Jean's question in respect of name, and if indeed my friend is correct about the way the pattern was constructed, then I think we can say that this was not an attempt at any known pamor, but is a new pattern, the name known only to the maker.

As I have said, this man is a great pattern welder. On a scale of one to ten I rate my knowledge level in this area as about 3 or 4, and I rate his knowledge level as about 8 or 9. He is vastly more knowledgeable in pattern welding than I am. Even though he is not really tuned into keris and has almost no knowledge at all of the way the smiths in Jawa and Madura work, we must take notice of his opinion because although the details of his theoretical construction might be wrong, it is very probable that his broad concept is correct.

The sketches I am publishing here were prepared by him for his students, and he has graciously agreed to their publication here.

[Jean]

Alan,
Welcome back to the forum (we missed you a lot), thank you very much for the technical information, and I am glad to have found this blade with unique pamor X!
Best regards
Jean