comments on this barung lamenation? - Page 2

Spunjer · 4th June 2005, 02:42 PM

hehe, sorry, should've been more specific. i was referring to battara's barung.

Quote:

On my datu piece the hilt is also filled with lead.

btw, can lead be polished to a certain point? that would definitely look more prestigious (if polished) than just having a black gal-gal...

Rick · 4th June 2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hehe, sorry, should've been more specific. i was referring to battara's barung.

btw, can lead be polished to a certain point? that would definitely look more prestigious (if polished) than just having a black gal-gal...

Yep , lead can be polished to a shine but it tarnishes very quickly .

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 03:16 PM

Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?..........
I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......

Rick · 4th June 2005, 04:12 PM

Tom , I have no experience with shandigan barungs not having one in my collection nor even seen one in real life .
Here's what I can tell you about my 'regular' barung ; the blade is slightly wedge shaped (very slightly) in cross section . The sides or flanks if you will are flat except for the lumpiness from the smith's forging . The blade does not swell out toward the edge in cross section and the edge is a convex curve to its apex .

One last picture :

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 05:43 PM

Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece

Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

Rick · 4th June 2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece

Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

If a bevel is a flat angle or 'facet' then there is no secondary bevel .
The curve down to the apex of the edge starts about 1" in .
The spine shows a pretty consistent tripartite layer arrangement .
I'll try to get a photo but may not succeed .
Stay tuned ........

Federico · 4th June 2005, 06:42 PM

Tom

Shandigan barongs, the edge is more like someone re-inforced by adding steel to the cutting edge on a regular barong, vs hollow grinding it out. The normal part starts as a regular flat grind, but then about half an inch from the edge it poofs out into a new thick edge which is convex. Really no hollow grinding done at all, and by my eye it would be forged in, trying to flat grind all the material with hand tools would just be way to time consuming and a waste of steel. Particularly where the reinforced edge meets the normal flat on mine, it is somewhat rounded (not a good word but all I can think of right now), not consistent with a grinding.

Rick · 4th June 2005, 09:18 PM

Best I could do Tom .
Spunjer , could we get a shot of the spine on your barung ?

Spunjer · 5th June 2005, 12:55 AM

not exactly sure what you're asking about shandigans, tom, so i took some pictures of the blade from a different angles, if this help you any further. as for the spine rick, this is the best i can do. hope this helps.

tom hyle · 6th June 2005, 11:14 AM

Thanks. Federico, that's just what I wanted to know. Still pretty far at sea as to what's going on with the spine of your sword, Rick; my guess is still that there is an applied spine whose internal structure (the stripe) is incidental and of no particular relation to the rest of the blade, but it's crossed out of anything I personally have seen or can readily explain in practical terms without further knowlege (ie sword in hand, 1/2 a cigarette and some good staring, and I could probably tell you A LOT more, and be much more certain about it; it's really hard to work from photos in these matters; much must be guessed at and interpretted.). I don't think Gt Obach's idea that applied edge and spine are the same (butt welded) piece is correct: it seems an uncharacteristic waste of edge steel, but I suppose it's possible. I can't tell from the picture whether there is indeed a central stripe of another alloy on the spine, or whether such is deliberate, or whether it's just a randomish variation in folded grain. I'm not seeing a real distinct stripe; I kinda sorta see one; that could be the photo.......

Gt Obach · 6th June 2005, 05:25 PM

bizarre... I'm changing my opinion..... looking at the spine of Rick's knife I am agreeing with Tom...

- the edge was and spine was formed by inserting the core (with a scarfed edge) into a "V" shaped steel bar .... then welded shut

- this is revealed on the spine....... the flat of the spine is ground in.... removing the tip/edge of the steel in order to expose the core material...
- so when looking at it from the spine you see two steel outer plates with a black line/central core showing or exposed..

at first I was opposed to this view......it is alot of work, and I can see no gain from it to justify the extra work.....

-also..... a buttweld is not weaker..... if properly scarfed, clean surface, fluxed with borax.....and heated to proper temp........ hammered with proper pressure...... ... solid phase welding will occur !
- this process is done with numerous swords (euro's)

just goes to show you.........there are many paths to producing laminates

Greg

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2005, 09:25 PM

shenanagins? please hollow ground.Tim

tom hyle · 7th June 2005, 02:07 PM

What?

Gt Obach; I see what you're saying; the edge is a 3 layer sandwich that runs all the way around......

I'm not trying to go too far out on a limb and say that butt welds are intrinsically weak; I'm only saying that they have been described that way in instruction books for working blacksmiths and such view also seems to obtain in a variety of cultural settings, where the buttweld is not used. Part of this (in the case of interpretting physical culture; the books explain themselves) may be cultural/paradigmatic to do with geometry and/or metal production; the idea of a flat edge, with which to make a butt joint, seems fairly naturally occurring to industrial people, but it's actually a thing that must be deliberately produced, just as wood comes in flat boards in industrial culture, while in traditional culture, it tends to come in trees.

Part of it, as explained in the books, and as many of us can testify from experience with antiques, while various professional welders have always asserted that a good weld is as strong as the solid metal, is that bad areas in welds were routine and though avoided, were often assumed/allowed for in design. Not only that, but it seems to me that when laminated objects break, they do sometimes tend to break by delaminating, and this seems to happen where they were previously solidly laminated sometimes.

The old books generally imply that a weld can seem solid but have basically microscopic cold shuts throughout it. So, while a good weld may well be as strong as the metal (as logic would certainly dictate) it seems that it could be in many cultures considered perhaps overconfident for a smith to rely excessively on the quality of his weld, when he could have improved it by expanding its quantity across a wide scarfed joint (BTW, AFAIK a scarfed joint is one where the two pieces come together at a slanted surface, thus lengthening the joint; this technique has many varieties and is prominantly used in laminating metal blades, but also in carpentry, for instance, and leatherwork; anywhere two things are being adhered, I guess.....).

I've no doubt that some welding technologies have been better than others, and so may more justify reliance on butt joints. As I have said, butted edges are seen in the swords of many nations (Including in Europe, although inlaid edges are also seen Europe, formerly on fighting swords, commonly up to wwII and still on some of the more expensive tools. The butted edge is archaic in Europe, AFAIK, which is no comment on quality; I'm just pointing out that although seen in Europe at certain times and places, it is not the European standard, which modernly is either an inlaid edge [or in N America differential hardening] or a spring tempered blade, I'd say.).

Of all the cultures whose welded blades I've seen multiple examples of I think I've seen welding flaws from all of them. And that, of course, means there were other internal flaws I did not see. Europe, Africa, Tartar/Indo-Persian (nasty long cold shut inside the applied spine of a pesh kabz

), SE Asian, Japan; it could happen in any country......

Gt Obach · 7th June 2005, 05:39 PM

yes I agree that many texts have said the buttweld was inferior...... and welding is only as good as the smith is...... ... (there are many examples of bad welds )
- actually, there was many tests done by the Navy on weld strength... they concluded that a butt weld was weak.... but if it is properly scarfed, weld strength was great !

my definition of a scarfed joint is basically a rounded surface... so when the weld is about to take place, it will squish outwards the flux/scale and make a solid weld.. (rather than trap it in the weld)

another big problem with welds is some smiths do not grind the fire scale off of the surface before welding....... lot's of the fire scale will contaminate the weld and make it less secure. (this is critical for a good weld )

if you look at Jonathan 's site..... he has some pic's on how a seax was welded up.. (butt weld)

http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt1.jpg
http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt2.jpg
http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt3.jpg
http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/seax12.5.03.jpg

now that you mention it..... it does make sense that they put an edge on like this...... by doubling the welded area it should make the edge even more secure..... and you don't have to rely on a single weld

many cultures have developed their own welding strategies to cope with the materials at hand... maybe what is best in Japan is not the best in europe...

good post
Greg

barong, keris.. are very interesting laminates...

tom hyle · 8th June 2005, 12:13 PM

The interesting claim I've encountered about Japanese smiths (And I've watched 'em weld....) is that the type of bamboo charcoal they use obviates the need for flux.
Making a weld without, as you say, humping the surfaces first is also often warned of as a good way to make a cold shut.

4th June 2005, 04:12 PM	#34
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Tom , I have no experience with shandigan barungs not having one in my collection nor even seen one in real life . Here's what I can tell you about my 'regular' barung ; the blade is slightly wedge shaped (very slightly) in cross section . The sides or flanks if you will are flat except for the lumpiness from the smith's forging . The blade does not swell out toward the edge in cross section and the edge is a convex curve to its apex . One last picture : Attached Images

4th June 2005, 09:18 PM	#38
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Spine Shot Best I could do Tom . Spunjer , could we get a shot of the spine on your barung ? Attached Images

5th June 2005, 12:55 AM	#39
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	not exactly sure what you're asking about shandigans, tom, so i took some pictures of the blade from a different angles, if this help you any further. as for the spine rick, this is the best i can do. hope this helps. Attached Images

6th June 2005, 09:25 PM	#42
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,812	shenanagins? please hollow ground.Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 6th June 2005 at 09:58 PM.

7th June 2005, 02:07 PM	#43
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What? Gt Obach; I see what you're saying; the edge is a 3 layer sandwich that runs all the way around...... I'm not trying to go too far out on a limb and say that butt welds are intrinsically weak; I'm only saying that they have been described that way in instruction books for working blacksmiths and such view also seems to obtain in a variety of cultural settings, where the buttweld is not used. Part of this (in the case of interpretting physical culture; the books explain themselves) may be cultural/paradigmatic to do with geometry and/or metal production; the idea of a flat edge, with which to make a butt joint, seems fairly naturally occurring to industrial people, but it's actually a thing that must be deliberately produced, just as wood comes in flat boards in industrial culture, while in traditional culture, it tends to come in trees. Part of it, as explained in the books, and as many of us can testify from experience with antiques, while various professional welders have always asserted that a good weld is as strong as the solid metal, is that bad areas in welds were routine and though avoided, were often assumed/allowed for in design. Not only that, but it seems to me that when laminated objects break, they do sometimes tend to break by delaminating, and this seems to happen where they were previously solidly laminated sometimes. The old books generally imply that a weld can seem solid but have basically microscopic cold shuts throughout it. So, while a good weld may well be as strong as the metal (as logic would certainly dictate) it seems that it could be in many cultures considered perhaps overconfident for a smith to rely excessively on the quality of his weld, when he could have improved it by expanding its quantity across a wide scarfed joint (BTW, AFAIK a scarfed joint is one where the two pieces come together at a slanted surface, thus lengthening the joint; this technique has many varieties and is prominantly used in laminating metal blades, but also in carpentry, for instance, and leatherwork; anywhere two things are being adhered, I guess.....). I've no doubt that some welding technologies have been better than others, and so may more justify reliance on butt joints. As I have said, butted edges are seen in the swords of many nations (Including in Europe, although inlaid edges are also seen Europe, formerly on fighting swords, commonly up to wwII and still on some of the more expensive tools. The butted edge is archaic in Europe, AFAIK, which is no comment on quality; I'm just pointing out that although seen in Europe at certain times and places, it is not the European standard, which modernly is either an inlaid edge [or in N America differential hardening] or a spring tempered blade, I'd say.). Of all the cultures whose welded blades I've seen multiple examples of I think I've seen welding flaws from all of them. And that, of course, means there were other internal flaws I did not see. Europe, Africa, Tartar/Indo-Persian (nasty long cold shut inside the applied spine of a pesh kabz ), SE Asian, Japan; it could happen in any country...... Last edited by Andrew; 7th June 2005 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Paragraphs, Tom, paragraphs. ;)

4th June 2005, 03:16 PM	#33
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?.......... I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......

4th June 2005, 05:43 PM	#35
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

4th June 2005, 06:42 PM	#37
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Tom Shandigan barongs, the edge is more like someone re-inforced by adding steel to the cutting edge on a regular barong, vs hollow grinding it out. The normal part starts as a regular flat grind, but then about half an inch from the edge it poofs out into a new thick edge which is convex. Really no hollow grinding done at all, and by my eye it would be forged in, trying to flat grind all the material with hand tools would just be way to time consuming and a waste of steel. Particularly where the reinforced edge meets the normal flat on mine, it is somewhat rounded (not a good word but all I can think of right now), not consistent with a grinding.

6th June 2005, 11:14 AM	#40
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks. Federico, that's just what I wanted to know. Still pretty far at sea as to what's going on with the spine of your sword, Rick; my guess is still that there is an applied spine whose internal structure (the stripe) is incidental and of no particular relation to the rest of the blade, but it's crossed out of anything I personally have seen or can readily explain in practical terms without further knowlege (ie sword in hand, 1/2 a cigarette and some good staring, and I could probably tell you A LOT more, and be much more certain about it; it's really hard to work from photos in these matters; much must be guessed at and interpretted.). I don't think Gt Obach's idea that applied edge and spine are the same (butt welded) piece is correct: it seems an uncharacteristic waste of edge steel, but I suppose it's possible. I can't tell from the picture whether there is indeed a central stripe of another alloy on the spine, or whether such is deliberate, or whether it's just a randomish variation in folded grain. I'm not seeing a real distinct stripe; I kinda sorta see one; that could be the photo.......

6th June 2005, 05:25 PM	#41
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	bizarre... I'm changing my opinion..... looking at the spine of Rick's knife I am agreeing with Tom... - the edge was and spine was formed by inserting the core (with a scarfed edge) into a "V" shaped steel bar .... then welded shut - this is revealed on the spine....... the flat of the spine is ground in.... removing the tip/edge of the steel in order to expose the core material... - so when looking at it from the spine you see two steel outer plates with a black line/central core showing or exposed.. at first I was opposed to this view......it is alot of work, and I can see no gain from it to justify the extra work..... -also..... a buttweld is not weaker..... if properly scarfed, clean surface, fluxed with borax.....and heated to proper temp........ hammered with proper pressure...... ... solid phase welding will occur ! - this process is done with numerous swords (euro's) just goes to show you.........there are many paths to producing laminates Greg

7th June 2005, 05:39 PM	#44
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	yes I agree that many texts have said the buttweld was inferior...... and welding is only as good as the smith is...... ... (there are many examples of bad welds ) - actually, there was many tests done by the Navy on weld strength... they concluded that a butt weld was weak.... but if it is properly scarfed, weld strength was great ! my definition of a scarfed joint is basically a rounded surface... so when the weld is about to take place, it will squish outwards the flux/scale and make a solid weld.. (rather than trap it in the weld) another big problem with welds is some smiths do not grind the fire scale off of the surface before welding....... lot's of the fire scale will contaminate the weld and make it less secure. (this is critical for a good weld ) if you look at Jonathan 's site..... he has some pic's on how a seax was welded up.. (butt weld) http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt1.jpg http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt2.jpg http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/interrupt3.jpg http://www.jloose.com/siteimages/seax12.5.03.jpg now that you mention it..... it does make sense that they put an edge on like this...... by doubling the welded area it should make the edge even more secure..... and you don't have to rely on a single weld many cultures have developed their own welding strategies to cope with the materials at hand... maybe what is best in Japan is not the best in europe... good post Greg barong, keris.. are very interesting laminates...

8th June 2005, 12:13 PM	#45
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The interesting claim I've encountered about Japanese smiths (And I've watched 'em weld....) is that the type of bamboo charcoal they use obviates the need for flux. Making a weld without, as you say, humping the surfaces first is also often warned of as a good way to make a cold shut.