Moro kris: Information/Comments welcome!

Maurice · 16th April 2010, 07:50 PM

Any comments or info on this one?
According to the seller this was a worldwar II bringback, and untouched for the last six decades (kept in the closet).
Because of the patina I guess it was also a long time untouched before the person brought it back!

Note the old restoration of the crest, that has been broken off a long time ago!
Metal bands on the handle, probably brass (or some kind of brass alloy). In between woven fiber bands.
After cleaning the brown varnish of the blade (which was on the blade) and a slight etch with hot vinegar, already nice laminations popped up.

Maurice

Battara · 16th April 2010, 08:09 PM

The blade looks Sulu while the scabbard looks Maranao. The little okir I can see beneath one of the bands also looks Maranao. Not unheard of, lots of trade between these regions.

Rick · 16th April 2010, 08:47 PM

The scabbard looks well carved .
Can we see a picture or two of the recarved crest area please ?

Maurice · 16th April 2010, 09:18 PM

Oops! Forgot to upload the image of the crest I referred to!

Here it comes Rick!

Battara · 20th April 2010, 04:28 AM

By the way, the metal bands look more like tarnished silver, not brass.

Sajen · 20th April 2010, 12:49 PM

Hi Maurice,

very nice old kris also when the crest of the pommel is missing. Hope that I can own one day such a nice kris! Do you have tried to polish the metal?

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 20th April 2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

By the way, the metal bands look more like tarnished silver, not brass.

Could it be some alloy?

On the bands in the middle (the two smaller onces) there are some traces of green assessment, which is also seen on those brass lantaka's.
But at the other hand the lowest one looks more "white".

Now I am in two minds......if it is silver I want it to get polished........and if it would be brass I like this kind of patina........

Sajen · 20th April 2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Could it be some alloy?

On the bands in the middle (the two smaller onces) there are some traces of green assessment, which is also seen on those brass lantaka's.
But at the other hand the lowest one looks more "white".

Now I am in two minds......if it is silver I want it to get polished........and if it would be brass I like this kind of patina........

Do you have silver test? This is a easy way to be sure. Otherwise try to polish only a small part which is not to seen direkt.

Maurice · 20th April 2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Maurice,

very nice old kris also when the crest of the pommel is missing. Hope that I can own one day such a nice kris! Do you have tried to polish the metal?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Sajen,

I like the broken crest where the old restore is visible.
I rather like them this way and don't want it to be restored (but tastes differ).

I am sure that it is possible to find one. I was looking for this one for quite some years, and believe it or not, after chasing after morocollectors to get one like this, epray was the solution afterall....

I didn't polish the metal, I just sanded the blade to get rid of the surficial rust and black spots/pitting.
I attached two more images of the cleaning/etching result.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 20th April 2010, 03:17 PM

Hi Maurice,

two missunderstandings!

I also like the pommel like this and also don't would like to restore it.

And by polish the metal I mean the bands at the pommel, try to polish only a small part where it is not visible direkt to see which metal you have there when you don't have silver test fluid.

Maurice · 20th April 2010, 03:57 PM

Hi Sajen,

Yes I see now when reading it back!
But whilest typing my last comment responding yours, my wife was already with her coat on ready to go, telling me to hurry up!!.........I guess that will be everywhere the same!

So my mind was split in two pieces: At one piece it was reading and typing, and at the other half assuring my wife that it didn't take long anymore before shutting my laptop!

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 20th April 2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Sajen,

Yes I see now when reading it back!
But whilest typing my last comment responding yours, my wife was already with her coat on ready to go, telling me to hurry up!!.........I guess that will be everywhere the same!

Kind Regards,
Maurice

You can belive, it is like this!

Battara · 21st April 2010, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Could it be some alloy?

On the bands in the middle (the two smaller onces) there are some traces of green assessment, which is also seen on those brass lantaka's.
But at the other hand the lowest one looks more "white".

Now I am in two minds......if it is silver I want it to get polished........and if it would be brass I like this kind of patina........

Actually the silver used then and now is alloyed with copper. This is why sometimes on old silver pieces there is some green patina. Often back then there was even more copper content than what is commonly used today, often close to coin silver (today: sterling silver is used - 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper, coin silver is 80% silver and 20% copper).

Thus I am shocked that there would be some green patina. If brass, it is obvious, but if silver, don't be surprised that some green patina might be present.

kai · 21st April 2010, 10:31 PM

Hello Maurice,

Congrats, that's a really sweet 19th c. blade - really like this Sulu style! Quite typical with a length of 20.5 inches, too. Nice etching job!

Also love the small pommel style as you know...

Did you tried a bit of wax on the scabbard to get a less dry look of the wood? (As well as offering a bit of protection from the low-humidity in-house.)

Regards,
Kai

kai · 21st April 2010, 10:40 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

The blade looks Sulu while the scabbard looks Maranao. The little okir I can see beneath one of the bands also looks Maranao. Not unheard of, lots of trade between these regions.

Yes, seems like the blade found its way into Mindanao quite a long time ago - my guess would be that the hilt was already with the blade since the 19th c.

BTW, I remember that Maranao silverwork as found on hilts got exported to the Sulu archipelago, too. However, Sulu kris with imported Maranao parts would sport Sulu scabbards, no?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 21st April 2010, 10:57 PM

Quote:

By the way, the metal bands look more like tarnished silver, not brass.

IMHO, the patina looked slightly off for silver to me but on a second look it might well be a low silver alloy, too. The highlights seen at the rim of the pommel band (post #4) look kinda promising. I'd surely do a silver test at this area before polishing a window into the existing patina.

Quote:

If brass, it is obvious, but if silver, don't be surprised that some green patina might be present.

Yes, especially in humid conditions some copper compounds easily develop from corrosion with coin silver (or even lower silver alloys).

Maurice, have you tried the "cold" needle test to gauge the malleability of the metal?

Regards,
Kai

Maurice · 21st April 2010, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Nice etching job!

Yep, learned it from the profi!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Also love the small pommel style as you know...

That makes two of us!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Did you tried a bit of wax on the scabbard to get a less dry look of the wood? (As well as offering a bit of protection from the low-humidity in-house.)

Yes I used wax on the wood. Maybe it is not clear to see on the images, but it has a much better look allready as when I got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Maurice, have you tried the "cold" needle test to gauge the malleability of the metal?

Not yet, but I will try soon and surely let you know!

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Mytribalworld · 22nd April 2010, 08:51 AM

Maurice, have you tried the "cold" needle test to gauge the malleability of the metal?

Regards,
Kai[/QUOTE]

cold needle test ? do you practice voodoo , Kai?

can you explain what you mean with that test?

Maurice · 22nd April 2010, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

cold needle test ? do you practice voodoo , Kai?

can you explain what you mean with that test?

I know what Kai means because we had a "non forum" conversation about silver and silver alloys a time ago.
Kai means that it could be worth trying pricking it with a steel needle at an inconspicuous place. Low grade silver is tougher though and less easy to differentiate from nickel silver, etc.

Maybe Kai can add or correct me if wrong or not complete!

David · 22nd April 2010, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

...cold needle test ? do you practice voodoo , Kai?

Some of us who practice Vodou might not take too kindly to this gross Hollywood misconception of what the practice of Voodoo entails.

Battara · 23rd April 2010, 02:35 AM

If you hear a kris screaming in the other room, you'll know why...

Maurice · 23rd April 2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

If you hear a kris screaming in the other room, you'll know why...

To hear my kris screaming, you must have big ears!

kino · 27th April 2010, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Note the old restoration of the crest, that has been broken off a long time ago!

A very nice Kris. Congrats. I love that dark aged ivory.
That pin on the crest might not have been a restoration. Maybe it was there at the initial carving of the ivory, pinned the crest for added support, and then the crest broke off with much handling. I have a Kris with a bone kakatua pommel that has pieces of the crest pinned together. I'll post a photo when the sun rises.

Maurice · 27th April 2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

A very nice Kris. Congrats. I love that dark aged ivory.
That pin on the crest might not have been a restoration. Maybe it was there at the initial carving of the ivory, pinned the crest for added support, and then the crest broke off with much handling. I have a Kris with a bone kakatua pommel that has pieces of the crest pinned together. I'll post a photo when the sun rises.

Thanks!
I am looking forward to the photo about the piece with the crest pinned together!

kino · 28th April 2010, 06:34 AM

Here are a couple of photo's of the kris that I mentioned.
Both of them had pins holding the kakatua's crest in place. The pin on the ivory might have been inserted as a repair because the crest has a break in multiple places. The smaller bone kakatua, you can clearly see that the pin was used to hold the stacked pieces of the kakatua's crest at the onset of the carving.

Battara · 28th April 2010, 07:37 AM

Albert you have a good point (like the one on top of my head

) about the pin holding the rest in place. I now see what you are saying and the pictures you post help, thank you.

Maurice · 28th April 2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Here are a couple of photo's of the kris that I mentioned.
Both of them had pins holding the kakatua's crest in place. The pin on the ivory might have been inserted as a repair because the crest has a break in multiple places. The smaller bone kakatua, you can clearly see that the pin was used to hold the stacked pieces of the kakatua's crest at the onset of the carving.

Thank you for the images. Beautifull pieces.
Are the pins in both your krisses metal or wood?

Maurice

kino · 29th April 2010, 03:35 PM

Maurice, I believe the pins are brass , definitely not wood.

Maurice · 29th April 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Maurice, I believe the pins are brass , definitely not wood.

The strange thing here is that the pin in my crest is from ivory also.
That would never be strong enough to hold different pieces together..

Maurice

Battara · 29th April 2010, 05:10 PM

Maurice, I think an ivory "nail" would be able to hold small things together, in this case, a small crest to the pommel.

16th April 2010, 07:50 PM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Moro kris: Information/Comments welcome! Any comments or info on this one? According to the seller this was a worldwar II bringback, and untouched for the last six decades (kept in the closet). Because of the patina I guess it was also a long time untouched before the person brought it back! Note the old restoration of the crest, that has been broken off a long time ago! Metal bands on the handle, probably brass (or some kind of brass alloy). In between woven fiber bands. After cleaning the brown varnish of the blade (which was on the blade) and a slight etch with hot vinegar, already nice laminations popped up. Maurice Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 16th April 2010 at 08:02 PM.

28th April 2010, 06:34 AM	#25
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Here are a couple of photo's of the kris that I mentioned. Both of them had pins holding the kakatua's crest in place. The pin on the ivory might have been inserted as a repair because the crest has a break in multiple places. The smaller bone kakatua, you can clearly see that the pin was used to hold the stacked pieces of the kakatua's crest at the onset of the carving. Attached Images

16th April 2010, 08:09 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	The blade looks Sulu while the scabbard looks Maranao. The little okir I can see beneath one of the bands also looks Maranao. Not unheard of, lots of trade between these regions.

16th April 2010, 08:47 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The scabbard looks well carved . Can we see a picture or two of the recarved crest area please ?

16th April 2010, 09:18 PM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Oops! Forgot to upload the image of the crest I referred to! Here it comes Rick! Attached Images

20th April 2010, 04:28 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	By the way, the metal bands look more like tarnished silver, not brass.

20th April 2010, 12:49 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Maurice, very nice old kris also when the crest of the pommel is missing. Hope that I can own one day such a nice kris! Do you have tried to polish the metal? Regards, Detlef

20th April 2010, 03:17 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Maurice, two missunderstandings! I also like the pommel like this and also don't would like to restore it. And by polish the metal I mean the bands at the pommel, try to polish only a small part where it is not visible direkt to see which metal you have there when you don't have silver test fluid.

20th April 2010, 03:57 PM	#11
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Hi Sajen, Yes I see now when reading it back! But whilest typing my last comment responding yours, my wife was already with her coat on ready to go, telling me to hurry up!!.........I guess that will be everywhere the same! So my mind was split in two pieces: At one piece it was reading and typing, and at the other half assuring my wife that it didn't take long anymore before shutting my laptop! Kind Regards, Maurice

21st April 2010, 10:31 PM	#14
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Maurice, Congrats, that's a really sweet 19th c. blade - really like this Sulu style! Quite typical with a length of 20.5 inches, too. Nice etching job! Also love the small pommel style as you know... Did you tried a bit of wax on the scabbard to get a less dry look of the wood? (As well as offering a bit of protection from the low-humidity in-house.) Regards, Kai

22nd April 2010, 08:51 AM	#18
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	Maurice, have you tried the "cold" needle test to gauge the malleability of the metal? Regards, Kai[/QUOTE] cold needle test ? do you practice voodoo , Kai? can you explain what you mean with that test?

23rd April 2010, 02:35 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	If you hear a kris screaming in the other room, you'll know why...

28th April 2010, 07:37 AM	#26
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Albert you have a good point (like the one on top of my head ) about the pin holding the rest in place. I now see what you are saying and the pictures you post help, thank you.

29th April 2010, 03:35 PM	#28
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Maurice, I believe the pins are brass , definitely not wood.

29th April 2010, 05:10 PM	#30
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Maurice, I think an ivory "nail" would be able to hold small things together, in this case, a small crest to the pommel.